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Old 14th November 2011, 12:50 PM
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There's no perfect solution, so you have to agree on what you want to achieve to determine if the suggestions made actually help or not. At the moment, the suggestions solve different problems.

At one end you have the issue of advantage/disadvantage to a shooter based on their ability, and at the other you have inclusion and participation. There is the very awkward truth in that the playing field can never be level, we are all at the mercy of our abilities. No sport has ever achieved the perfect solution, so my thinking is we look at solutions that reduce the number of problems or people affected. How many shooters are affected, boil it down to those it least affects... harsh I know, but I am not sure what else to suggest as a direction.

Make standing the alternative for kneeling, no alternative for standing. Allow shooters to take their shots where they would like and how they would like, just not count them. See how big the problem is.

It's worth noting that some shooters using the alternative only do so because they have been shown how to do so. It's not like they've gone looking for something to make their life easier or to gain advantage. I do wonder how many would accept the rougher decision not to be able to do them with the spirit of the sport and it's participants in mind.

As for marshaling, put a marshal on the positional lane with a sign saying "You will be given a zero for this, this and this, if I see it, now carry on". Makes it clear up front what will happen, brings attention to the points currently in fashion for griping, gives opportunity for solution or explanation before the shot is taken, doesn't mean that someone has to stick their head above the bunker after the shot, or while the shot is being constructed. Also doesn't mean you think you need the biggest balls to bring anyone to call on it. I reckon in 1-2 seasons the point will be moot. Word will get around, job done.
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Old 14th November 2011, 01:01 PM
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i have had a knee problem in the last month and at yesterday's SWEFTA presentation shoot i spoke to the organiser and asked if he was ok with me doing my kneeling shots in the standing position. there was no advantage for me doing this so my reasons were honourable, otherwise i would do the kneeling position for diabled but i personaly think i would have taken an advantage.
i would just say that kneeling shots to be taken STANDING if unable to kneel. a short study done at east devon came up with a 33% more success rate using the disabled position ( fact).

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Old 14th November 2011, 03:28 PM
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Reading over this and the previous thread there seem to be two particular gripes; firstly that some shooters are in effect cheating by choosing the 'disabled' positions and secondly a genuine fear that a major tournament or league may be won by a disabled shooter, either real or fake.

In the first instance is there actually any region that can identify a specific problem of cheating? If so could not the matter be addressed by the regional committee with that/those particular shooter(s), after all the current rules require anyone to clearly justify to a course marshall why they need the alternative position.

Secondly, has any disabled shooter, real or fake, won a major tournament or league since the adoption of these rules or under the previous 'discretion' rules. Is anyone 'cleaning up' the local leagues, I wish I was!

What exactly would be the problem if, once in a while, a disabled shooter won?

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Old 14th November 2011, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Waelwulfas View Post
What exactly would be the problem if, once in a while, a disabled shooter won?

For me and others, as the standing / kneeling shots would not have been as differcult, you had not competed on a level playing field?
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Old 14th November 2011, 04:16 PM
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I have no problem at all with a disabled person winning a comp and good luck to them!
As I said before, this is more about people abusing the rules than it is about disabled shooters.
I think the alternate standing and alternate kneeling positions should be thought of as seperate, some people claim disablement (justified or not) and then do both kneelers and standers in the alternate positions. I don't think there are many people who can carry their gun across rough ground and still justify avoiding the standing shots.


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Old 14th November 2011, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by NJR 100 View Post
For me and others, as the standing / kneeling shots would not have been as difficult, you had not competed on a level playing field?
It's a matter of preception, surely, how do we establish scientifically that my seated position is easier. Its worth pointing out that I'm sitting at the mo because that is what BFTA require me to do, I've been asked to stand with a shooting stick, which is what the 10m bods do, I'd give it a shot but according to the current rules I would have to show that I cannot adopt the seated position first. The proposal actually going to the AGM is an adoption of NSRA rules; as such I would probably stand using a sprung shooting stand which wobbles in the wind! The NSRA seem to think that this levels the field in 10m. Not sure how kneelers would work but again the idea is a tailored stance for each shooter, no medical evidence - no dispensation, no cheats

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Old 14th November 2011, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Snike View Post
I take it you clear all your sitters then and a 55yd reduced size kill would be just as easy as a full size kill!
If you make it hard enough to ensure a course can't be cleared easily from a sitting position, then a seperate "disabled" class isn't necessary, current issues dissapearand everyone shoots in the open class. Simples!

I actually can compete against any shooter, even Ian Taylor, on sitting shots.

I do very well at the Anglo American, which includes reduced kills.

So the sitting only idea would benefit me enormously.

But I would know that I was not as good as Ian because I cannot shoot as well as he can standing or kneeling.

So if I beat him, or other top shots by banishing kneeling and standing shots it would be a hollow victory.

So with the current disabled positions it is not competing fairly.

So to make it fair and allow disabled shooters to compete, fairly, create a sitting only class and let the rest continue as they have been for the last 20 odd years.
Less is more.

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Old 14th November 2011, 06:18 PM
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Please can I make a correction to a few point that have arisen in this tread.

1. The first alternative position to for anyone who cannot kneel but is able to use the standing position is to take their kneeling as standers thereby they gain no advantage over ablebodied shooters.

2. There is nothing in the Rules that says a shooter shouldn't use a shooting sitck type support to take standing shots if this is a suitable position for their disability. This type of support was used by a young lady in the English Archery team at the last Commowealth Games!!!

3. This subject is on the Agenda for Saturdays AGM. The BFTA and the NSRA have agreed a system whereby the BFTA can use the Disability Certification Scheme they have in place. This has to be put before the BFTA Committee and gain approval but hopefully will be in use shortly. The NSRA has taken a number of year to put this in place to enable a level playingfield for all in shooting sports.

4. Someone mentioned the Olympics - The ISSF disability classes are strictly regulated but do not include disability through arthritic conditions and the type of disabilities we see in the sport of FT

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Old 14th November 2011, 07:21 PM
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I stread of trying to ban it or make a sitting class why not let every one be able to use it if they want to but let the course setters go out to full distance(55yards) . i know many shooters that would still kneel than use the disabled position.
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Old 14th November 2011, 09:58 PM
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Default standing and kneeling

a few tondu members and myself tried the alternative standing and kneeling postions a while ago .
i found the alternative standing postion a lot easier to use and hit most of what i shot at .now i had a shocking gp series with my standers and still finished in 8th place overall ,i missed a load of standers that i am sure i could have hit in the disabled postion .
i did not like the kneeling postion although i was easier
i dont think anyone is having a go at disabled shooters and i am most certinaly not ,however i do belive a sitting class is the way to go .
not sure about the shooting stick thing. in my opinioun is that would be silly .and i think that has no place in ft .
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