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Old 18th November 2011, 12:02 PM
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luddite luddite is offline
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This would effectively devalue the whole sport.

The top shooters are the top shooters because they are very good at kneeling and standing shots.

The only sensible way forwards is to introduce a sitting only class.

This would remove any need for medical documents and be fair to everyone.
Originally Posted by Denpar View Post
I can't believe how complicated we're making this issue. Perhaps I'm being too dense to appreciate the full picture but isn't the answer quite simple? All that's needed is a simple change to the wording of the rules:-

1) That standing shots may be taken (by any shooter) in either of two ways - the present stance or
the alternative stance.

2) That kneeling shots...... ditto the above.

The advantages would be:-

a) This would enable those people who are incapacitated for any reason, whether temporarily
or long term, to achieve a position which allows them to participate without having to give any
explainations or provide any medical evidence and to compete without stigma or innuendo.

b) Those who are presently able to assume the standard positions would have no cause for
complaint that anyone was seeking to gain an advantage because they themselves would be at
liberty to assume that position if they truly believed it was an advantage.

c) There would be no need for an additional "class" with all the complications that have been
well documented in this thread already.

d) It would make marshalling simpler and remove potential controversy. Not only does this taint the
the day for the shooters concerned but is equally upsetting for the often "press-ganged"

e) It would remove any requirement for any type of medical certification. This could be costly,
and would require administrators within the sport to have a degree of medical knowledge, and
the people issuing the certification to have a knowledge of FT, and which in its own right could be
open to abuse and manipulation.

f) I believe it would be simpler for all concerned and would require no earth shattering changes
to our sport.

I could list many more advantages, but enough is enough.

Roy Boliver
Less is more.

More or less.

Last edited by luddite; 18th November 2011 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 18th November 2011, 12:37 PM
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Rereading this thread, I keep seeing how changes should be made in the interest of fairness but looking from the other side of the fence, the suggested changes are not fair, they simply move the unfairness around. For instance:

It seems to be considered fair, that those who can't kneel be forced to stand for kneeling shots. Does it occur to anyone that people who can't kneel, tend to have problems with their legs generally? (Knees are typically located about halfay up a leg.) That's not to say they can't stand and take a shot but that the standers they are already doing, may well be compromised.

Let's say that as well as having a knee that only moves 15 degrees before bone stops it, the person also has one leg 3/4" shorter than the other and that same leg does not straighten or lock out at the knee. This means that perons right leg (back leg) is held in place by muscle tension, rather than locking it out (as most will agree is preferable when taking a standing shot). After a little while this will cause the leg to shake which is uhhelpful.

In what way is it fair then, for a person who already has issues achieving stability on standing shots, to be forced to take three times as many standers (typical at club level) as those who can kneel and stand perfectly well? Would not a fully able person have an unfair advantage in these circumstances?
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Old 18th November 2011, 01:51 PM
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I think whichever way you skin the cat, it's going to be unfair.

It's unfair if the alternative is too advantageous. It's damaging even if it's thought as such.

It's unfair if the alternative is too disadvantageous. It's damaging even if it's thought as such.

It's unfair if the alternative excludes you from competing at all levels of the sport.

Rutty has probably made the most useful contribution to this thread I think (no insult meant to anyone else).

But lets have some fun and see if we can prove it's unfair. 6 GP's to count, so 6x6 = 36 kneelers, and possibly 36 standers. Someone shoot the best they can in the alternative position and see if it can beat someone using the original postion. 25yds indoors, nice n comfortable, no wind. Measure on group size. 18 minutes for each 36. Say 6 groups of 6. Anything outside of 20mm is a miss, anything inside a hit. Add em all up. How does that sound? I'm game (i could use some practice! )
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Old 18th November 2011, 02:10 PM
Marmitinator Marmitinator is offline
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Maybe the disabled position is not a fair comparison of the real thing,but i think the real issue is with the people that use it to their advantage.
Too many people seem to regard it as a way to hit kneeler's,i personally have not seen the standing version used
but assum it is just as easy.
Is it that important to be crowned winner and pic up a piece of glass that cheating is needed.
I have made mistakes along the way and have had the benifit of people like steve page and neil daniels to point me in the right direction.
These people's opinion's should be valued and used constructively,not just put down to feeling threatened.
Hope this get's resolved so all parties are happy,but some how i doubt it.

simon francis
About as much use at field target , as a life guard at the Olympic swimming pool.

Last edited by Marmitinator; 18th November 2011 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 18th November 2011, 04:36 PM
paul4be paul4be is offline
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As a newbie to FT, I for one think it would be a shame to see the lose of standers and kneelers. I not not much cop at them at the moment, but they are something that I hope to improve with over time.

If people are taking the p*ss with alternate positions, then yes obviously something needs to be done, but it needs to be done in such a way as to keep things "interesting" across lanes, not just all sitting.

I asked previously, and don't think I've seen an answer, but just how big is the problem of people taking the micky with alternate positions???
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Old 18th November 2011, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by RobF View Post

But lets have some fun and see if we can prove it's unfair. 6 GP's to count, so 6x6 = 36 kneelers, and possibly 36 standers. Someone shoot the best they can in the alternative position and see if it can beat someone using the original postion. 25yds indoors, nice n comfortable, no wind. Measure on group size. 18 minutes for each 36. Say 6 groups of 6. Anything outside of 20mm is a miss, anything inside a hit. Add em all up. How does that sound? I'm game (i could use some practice! )
Not that I'm any good shooting groups on paper but I will try this out on Monday in the school sports hall. I'll post up the results with your assistance Rob.
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Old 18th November 2011, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by IAN TAYLOR View Post
This thread started by me saying this is not a personal attack on any one shooter, the fact that there grade is A-AA or how good they shoot is not the point. I have not heard of any one using the disabled rules whos scores have not improved, In theory a 50 target course using the disabled rules gets you an 8 target start. I have tried the disabled kneeling and find a massive advantage also the standing. To say nothing has been said up to now is wrong this tried getting in at the 2005 worlds we talked to Barry Longbottom and put a stop to it. What a poor way to put it that top shots feel threatend, what about the words Sportmanship and fairness, this is not a fair system thats in place. How on earth is this going to change anything whats proposed to the NSRA everyone will produce pictures of what they can achieve and we are back to square one with the disabled shooter getting an advantage. If there is one thing that has come out of this discussion with everyones views is that what we have now is wrong .
Thanks Ian.
I beg to differ Ian. Before injuring my right kne in a fall, I was able to hit about 90% of the knealers on a shoot, In fact I considered my knealing shots as steady as a sitterand didnt consider them a problem. This is mainly due to shooting£positional matches from the age of 19.

Following the injury and the adoption of the 'disabled' position I found I was lucky to hit 50% as the position is inherantly unstable. After a year using the position, I am now able to hit knealers more consistantly but still feel a degree of anxiety when it comes to knealers that I never had before.
If I was able to bend the knee beyond 90% I would be far hapier to use the correct position on kneeling lanes.

To sugest that the use of a disabled position makes the target a given and a head start is ridiculos.

Maybe we should revise the whole system to a handicap one would give all shooters a fai chance of winning on the dayand would cancel out any percieved advantages or disadvantages. The shoot wouldthen be decided by how the individual exceedes his (or her) average on the day.
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Old 18th November 2011, 06:44 PM
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would it not solve a lot of strees and heart ache for some if we carry on as normall for this season and for next year interduce a new class into the winter leauges across the boards
as we already have 3 different classes
(ie) open class
recoilling class
sft class
new one for those that which to do an all sitting class just my second through of the dice

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Old 18th November 2011, 07:20 PM
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Since this thread started ive had a few people in touch that used to shoot the " nefta classic " . They no longer take part in the shoot as it was too physically demanding & Would certainly come out of classic retirement if a sitting only class was introduced . What do folk think ? They wouldnt be eligible to take the top ft or silhouette trophy or the overall classic champion title but would be once again able to come & enjoy the unique atmosphere & shoot against like minded people for the top sitting class title .

This is only a few of my thoughts at the mo but if enough people think its worth doing then it can be fetched up at the next nefta meting & given a shot .

cheers , calps .
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Old 18th November 2011, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Scooby View Post
Thats's the problem though Alan, this isn't the case for everyone.

I've not been shooting at all for a few months due to a bad knee, I damaged the ligaments & part of the tendons but unfortunately there is also some wear in the joint.

If I'm to continue to shoot HFT I can either shoot my kneelers left handed or stand which still causes pain.

If I were to take up FT again & shot from the dispensation positions I would definitely have an advantage as I've always been pretty crap at standers.

Surely a dedicated sitting class it the best option as everyone is included & it's as fair as possible
Point taken Pete

It does look as though a all sitting class would be the fairest option.

It is a real shame that a tiny minority who feel the need to cheat spoil it for the majority but such is life

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