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Old 13th March 2011, 07:54 PM
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Excellent procedure for a genuine long term difficulty but it has an issue for a short term problem...

What about someone who had a minor knee op (key hole) to remove some cartilage that was playing up in their kneeling knee.
They should/will take 4-6 weeks to recover, so only a temporary problem in bending and putting weight on the knee, do they take kneelers by standing in competition or use the position for those with mobility difficulties/disabilities?

In this instance by the time you go about getting a disabled card as you suggest, probably by the time it has all been verified the problem would be cured.
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Old 13th March 2011, 08:01 PM
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as a thick welshman i just think just like being at work if you sick you get a note from the doc theres no questions
so im thinking the same for ft
as for shooting i have to take my hat of to some of the boys / girls their in agony shooting but have you ever seen the smile and heard the roar when pat and tony in wales kick our *****
its one of the reasons i love this sport
so lets get this sorted and get back to ft after all BFTA are and should be leading the ft world in the development of this sport so lets take the emotion out of this and be logical a set of rules we can all live with easy to understand and implement .

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Old 13th March 2011, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Miss England View Post
It is good to see the tone of this thread has calmed down.... I have had an idea and would be grateful if you could let me know your thoughts.........

I liked the idea of disabled cards.... so how would you attain one.....

As we are all aware most people could go to a doctor and obtain a note stating they need to refrain from something, but as none of us are qualified to diagnose other shooters medical condtions, a valid doctors note should be the starting point.....

For a sum of 30 a specific doctors letter can be obtained (prices may differ but having had one from my doc previously that is what I paid) this specific letter would detail the reasons why the shooter could not attain the mainstream position be it because it is physically impossible or would cause actual damage to the person. Also I believe that if a shooter is going to shoot for and represent their club in competitions that this cost could be split 50/50 between shooter and club as the doctors letter would enable that shooter to represent the club.... Just an idea....

After attaining this the shooter could then have to get a personal reference from shooters on their circuit (these references would be better valid if it was from outside the shooters own club, so trying to eliminate unfair bias...)The object of this reference is to help verify the need for the disabled position, and act as a character reference. For example shooters in my region CSFTA have seen me on many occassion in doubled over pain and struggling and are aware of all various treatments I have been undergoing, therefore I could find numerous people who could verify my position.

The doctors letter along with a character reference could then be taken to the Chairman of your club who would "sign off" the application giving the clubs backing and their personal backing that the application is genuine. Obviously if the chairman does not believe it to be genuine (and most chairmen should know their members abliities and character) then they would not back the application. Also I believe that should a chairman authorise a "false" or "non-genuine" application that the club would recieve a penalty - disqualification from that year winter league for example - a harsh penalty would discourage any falsifying of disability applications. It is a serious issue - ensuring people do not take advantage of a disabled positon when it is not genuinly needed.

As a further step this could then be submitted for final approval to the regional chariman. Again this would add further validity to the claim.

Once all is validated - and although it sounds like we would have to jump throught hoops so to speak, it would then mean a fully approved "disabled card" could be issued with that shooters name, number, club and approved disabled position which would need to be presented at the beginning of every shoot.

That way every shooter would know that any person taking disabled positionals have been fully validated and the reason is genuine so they are not gaining an unfair advantage.

If the person needing the disabled position is genuine then these steps would ensure that we are seen to be using the positions "Fairly". I know that some may feel that this proceedure is over the top, but I feel that with several stages of validation, then the disabled position is used fairly.

I would be more than willing to do this as I want no percieved advantage I want to shoot well, improve and my god yes I want to win something...... But I want to do it with everyone congratulating me not stating that I only won because I used a disabled position for my kneelers I want to win on my skills (as and when I hopefully develop them!!)

I love shooting FT. The challenges of the sport, the people I get to shoot with, and the buzz I get every time I see a target fall.

Please let me know what you think.....
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Old 13th March 2011, 08:11 PM
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I think you have got it just about right Helen ...... well done.
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Old 13th March 2011, 08:51 PM
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I have just completed my first NEFTA winter league season and up until quite recently I have been able to kneel ( albeit in considerable discomfort ) but now I can no longer kneel due to tendon problems.

I have thoroughly enjoyed my first winter league season and the disabled kneeling position has been a God send BUT I would much rather be able to take my kneelers from the regular position, I find the disabled kneeling position gives me a pain free way of shooting kneelers but really struggle to keep the rifle still due to a left right movement which I can't seem to control and I know of at least one other disabled kneeler who has the same problem.

Someone trying the position who is able bodied might find it incredibly stable but they do not have a knee problem so can't really judge imho.

I am never likely to win any thing, I shoot purely for pleasure and anyone looking at me would say there was nothing wrong with my knees, which there isn't until I kneel down

I would not qualify or even apply for a blue badge as I can walk perfectly well and I am sure my doctor can put his time to much better use than writing notes to say I am unfit to shoot a air rifle from a kneeling position which after all is for fun I would rather have the disadvantage of shooting from a standing position or just miss the kneeling lanes out altogether if a standing position is not allowed and put in a lower score than going to the lengths suggested above.

Someone who shoots from the disabled position without needing to is just cheating themselves.

When are chronographs going to be used on the shoots? from what I have seen in my first season I think this might get rid a few cheats

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Old 13th March 2011, 09:07 PM
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The idea of getting a doctors note is open to abuse just as much as the current situation. How easy do the workshy find it to skive off work after a visit to the doctors and pay a few quid for a note. At the end of the day people who cheat will always find a way. It is these people that need to be ousted and shown up for what they are. As for a suggestion for what could work..............why not leave it to each individual club. The Chairman/Captain/other members know all the members and what disabilities they have. It'll be difficult to pull the wool over thier eyes as they see them all the time.
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Old 13th March 2011, 09:22 PM
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If someone is known to be cheating then they need to be pulled up.
If someone is suspected to be cheating then it needs investigating.
If someone is racked with pain and needs a way so they can shoot then there should be an approved way.

Come to this very late as i've been away the weekend but have read through this and seen some positive things and some dissapointing things. At the end of the day this is all ment to be fun, a day out, NOT a matter of life and death. Yes lets sort out the cheats by all means (an we should as a matter of urgency), but not at the cost of excluding good honest shooters from the sport.
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Old 13th March 2011, 09:34 PM
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There are plenty of sports where lack of mobility will soon render the person unable to compete at all; in shooting we are fortunate to be at the other end of the spectrum, and it's not a huge job to level out the few residual humps in the playing field.

Regarding the cheats, totally agree, they have to be exposed and if they choose to leave the sport then so be it. They are taking the rise out of the able bodied and cynically exploiting the less mobile.
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Old 14th March 2011, 07:06 PM
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Bit off topic but, as has been mentioned before by big Neil about only allowed to take kneeling shots kneeling.

Just curious, is it NOT permitted for someone who has a dodgy ankle and/or knee to opt to take their kneelers from a standing position???? Surely this would be acceptable

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Old 14th March 2011, 07:26 PM
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Think H said if that was the only option, she would, and she'd relish taking scalps while standing on the moral high ground. "yeh, bring it on" I think was mentioned.

Before i screwed her stock up for her so she couldn't embarrass me further, she was absolutely nails on the standers. In her first winter league she has missed 3 out of 20 standers. On her first showdown, she missed 1/4. I hate to think what she would have been like with her old stock!

She missed more kneelers in the alternative position...

I think it's a damage limitation factor to be honest, if she keeps going the way she is, there's going to be some massive humble pie eaten if she hands it out taking them standing as well. Think you'd better make it easy on yourselves while you have the chance chaps
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