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  #11  
Old 16th August 2016, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Ratinator View Post
On your Walther hammer mods did the lighter hammer improve things or did the extra Spring pressure off set the gains?
Thanks Simon
Why do you associate a lighter hammer with extra spring preload? You can have a lighter hammer and less preload.
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Last edited by Tench; 16th August 2016 at 09:10 AM.
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  #12  
Old 16th August 2016, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Tench View Post
Why do you associate a lighter hammer with extra spring preload? You can have a lighter hammer and less preload.
I assumed a lighter hammer would need a little more force to gain the required momentum to open the valve.
Is this so or would you just adjust the reg pressure to make up the difference , if any?
Thanks Simon
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  #13  
Old 16th August 2016, 11:08 AM
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A shorter spring will reduce preload, a stiffer spring will reduce preload but both can give a stronger hit at the same time.

2 identical springs 50mm long, cut one to 40mm long. Now if both of these are compressed 10mm by cocking the action one will be compressed by 20% the other 25% making it stronger, or put another way when the power is set with each of these springs the shorter one will have less preload allowing the valve to close faster.

Also the hammer stroke is not set in stone, a lighter hammer with the same spring can have a harder hit and have less preload if the stroke is increased a little, and the shorter lighter hammer will accelerate faster so it need not add to the lock time.


Have fun! I have been playing with this for years!! But not in Steys I might add, BSA and Anschutz, the Anni has an advantage here with its contained hammer spring!
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Last edited by Tench; 16th August 2016 at 11:11 AM.
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  #14  
Old 16th August 2016, 11:26 AM
Ratinator Ratinator is offline
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Originally Posted by Tench View Post
A shorter spring will reduce preload, a stiffer spring will reduce preload but both can give a stronger hit at the same time.

2 identical springs 50mm long, cut one to 40mm long. Now if both of these are compressed 10mm by cocking the action one will be compressed by 20% the other 25% making it stronger, or put another way when the power is set with each of these springs the shorter one will have less preload allowing the valve to close faster.

Also the hammer stroke is not set in stone, a lighter hammer with the same spring can have a harder hit and have less preload if the stroke is increased a little, and the shorter lighter hammer will accelerate faster so it need not add to the lock time.


Have fun! I have been playing with this for years!! But not in Steys I might add, BSA and Anschutz, the Anni has an advantage here with its contained hammer spring!
Thank you very much for your insightful and thought provoking post .
I love tinkering but have to admit that I'm better at the practical than the science .
My efforts are trial and error , mostly error. So having some of the science explained is extremely helpful. Hammers can be replaced so that's begging to be messed with , anything that requires skill I ship out to the experts. Lol
Thanks again
Ps the mk4 barrel tuned out very well , thank you for the advice.
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  #15  
Old 16th August 2016, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Ratinator View Post
Thank you very much for your insightful and thought provoking post .
I love tinkering but have to admit that I'm better at the practical than the science .
My efforts are trial and error , mostly error. So having some of the science explained is extremely helpful. Hammers can be replaced so that's begging to be messed with , anything that requires skill I ship out to the experts. Lol
Thanks again
Ps the mk4 barrel tuned out very well , thank you for the advice.
Your welcome Si
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  #16  
Old 16th August 2016, 08:39 PM
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Thank you for your input but I think youre full of sh1t. Lol
I do appreciate your input Richard , but telling me that Steyr have not designed it wrong is nothing new.
The hammer was new to me from Harry when I had a replacement trigger block.
The standard hammer gave big issues which a buddy of mine helped diagnose , I then had a replacement hammer that was intended for an FAC rifle.
The only difference was the length of the cup and a solid block at the front.
It worked a lot better but shows wear marks when periodicly removed.
I think the original hammer with the flat spot is more consistent because it can not rotate , so the hybrid part is to remove the post off the back and install a cup.
Simon
How Rude.
The old spade type hammer tries to rotate but cant due to dragging on the underside of the roller but this is irregular due to the fact that the hammer although being spun by the spring is actually free floating as in its being chucked down the channel with no preload from the spring so sometimes doesnt which is the opposite in the newer (external) hammer which is always under pressure. Ive machined a firing body and fitted bearings/cups either side of the spring so that the spring could rotate through its compression/decompression cycle.......... It didnt work.
I dont care now as im Anschutz. Are there any Anschutz threads i can bullsh1t my way in to?
Atb.
Rich.
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  #17  
Old 16th August 2016, 09:00 PM
Ratinator Ratinator is offline
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Rich
Am I correct in thinking the new hammer has the same contact point as the old spade hammer, all be it a smaller contact area?
I have seen evidence of this on the underside of the roller bearing.
They are both machined above centre of the total thickness of the bar used.
May I enquire why the spade hammer is not under load all the way through the cycle and the new one is ?
Thanks Simon
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  #18  
Old 16th August 2016, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratinator View Post
Rich
Am I correct in thinking the new hammer has the same contact point as the old spade hammer, all be it a smaller contact area?
I have seen evidence of this on the underside of the roller bearing.
They are both machined above centre of the total thickness of the bar used.
May I enquire why the spade hammer is not under load all the way through the cycle and the new one is ?
Thanks Simon
Evening fella.
Welcome back.
Theyre a totally different design.
When the spring and bottom washer shove the old hammer down the tract they then stop at the base of the spring guide but the hammer travels on its merry way for a few mm until it strikes the firing valve. The hammer tries to rotate (as does the new one) whilst under tension but after that its free to do what it likes. So depending on its position when its going through its cocking cycle this will dictate wether it rubs on the roller or not. Polishing both helps but friction is still friction. As in my last post i stopped the hammer rotating (or i hope i did) with a bearing setup and this failed miserably, dont go there its a waste of a firing body.
The external hammer is under constant pressure even in its rested state but gives the least issues and of course doesnt get the chance to go piiiiiiiiing and doesnt seem to suffer valve bounce (although Tench is your man for that as its all about weight and pressure and energy and speed and stuff). It cant touch the roller for obvious reasons. Its the better standard option of the two but like you said neither are without flaws. Theyre generally not well made and do well with a polish up including the spring guide. Polishing the spring and adjuster are also a good step forward.
I ended up making my own hammer and adjuster and a couple of other bits but spent some time working the lock time which tbh i started to get a bit anal about. Making the journey for the air from the firing chamber to the pellet as quickly and easily as poss was important to me but that might just be because im not set right.
Atb.
Rich.
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  #19  
Old 17th August 2016, 02:05 AM
hmangphilly hmangphilly is offline
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Originally Posted by Ratinator View Post
On your Walther hammer mods did the lighter hammer improve things or did the extra Spring pressure off set the gains?
Thanks Simon
put it this way .....
currently back with a std hammer

the walther hammer is around double the weight of the steyr 16j too .

stroke has a part to play when altering the hammer weights .

after some testing we felt it was better have a fast closing valve , .....not being under great spring preload helped achieve this .


simon i doubt if your very long steyr hammer can cant or yaw or whatever in the tract enough to affect the strike point on its face .

was that what you were thinking ?
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  #20  
Old 17th August 2016, 08:06 AM
Ratinator Ratinator is offline
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Default Different mind set

The external hammer is under constant pressure even in its rested state but gives the least issues and of course doesnt get the chance to go piiiiiiiiing and doesnt seem to suffer valve bounce .

Touching in the rested state was where we felt the issues lay with the new trigger block.
It's a fine line between touching and causing a leaky valve.

It cant touch the roller for obvious reasons.

I don't want to seem pedantic but it does touch !! It may be that the thin section deflects as its released or placed under pressure , that would result in the front of the hammer being distorted out of line prior to being released.
Atb.
Rich.[/QUOTE]pj

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmangphilly View Post
put it this way .....
currently back with a std hammer

I'm thinking of trying to replicate your hammer bounce Spring , was that a success or another head banger?



after some testing we felt it was better have a fast closing valve , .....not being under great spring preload helped achieve this .


simon i doubt if your very long steyr hammer can cant or yaw or whatever in the tract enough to affect the strike point on its face .

The Steyr hammer is pretty captive , but like Rich said friction is friction however small. If it consistent that's fine , but friction also results in wear.
The hammer is steel and body is alloy so I don't want the same to happen as did with my Walther.
was that what you were thinking ?
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Last edited by Ratinator; 17th August 2016 at 08:09 AM.
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