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  #21  
Old 25th July 2016, 09:54 PM
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There's usually not enough Piston shooters at a GP to make their score representative of the course difficulty.
That's the reason the top score on the day regardless of grade or class is used as a benchmark of the course difficulty.

It's different for Open because they don't shoot the same course.

You could use a similar argument of fairness for any of the classes - is it fair to score a C grade shooter on the top AA score for the day? Or is it fair to have everyone's score based on the top score in the easiest session?

I quite like being able to make a comparison during a season of my score against PCP scores too.

Last edited by Brian.Samson; 25th July 2016 at 10:01 PM.
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  #22  
Old 25th July 2016, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by countorik View Post
Why would it mean that a piston shooter couldn't win a GP, after all, they shoot the same course, shoot the positionals, or am I missing something.
Peter
No one can win a GP. They can only win their grade.

Perhaps we should just get rid of dropped scores and make every one count. Shoot the series or don't. In reality it looks like the main protagonists in each grade or class shoot all the shoots anyway.
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  #23  
Old 26th July 2016, 09:07 AM
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Perhaps we should just get rid of dropped scores and make every one count. Shoot the series or don't. In reality it looks like the main protagonists in each grade or class shoot all the shoots anyway.
+1 From me on that.
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  #24  
Old 26th July 2016, 10:46 AM
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No one can win a GP. They can only win their grade.

Perhaps we should just get rid of dropped scores and make every one count. Shoot the series or don't. In reality it looks like the main protagonists in each grade or class shoot all the shoots anyway.
That would have a negative impact on attendances Rob.

For example, I had a gun failure at GP5 and couldn't continue shooting - my gun wouldn't physically cock anymore. That's a pain, but not a complete disaster because I know I can drop 2 scores so I can recover from a gun failure at an event.

Consider the situation where I'm not allowed to drop a score? - that would now mean that with a gun failure there's no way I can come back from that - would I have bothered to drive all the way down to Devon for GP6? Or would I have as much incentive to get out of bed when it's blowing a gale and p'ing it down with rain for another GP? Probably not.

The result would be, that if through no fault of my own something happens that means I can't make an event - there's no real point in shooting the rest of them.

Coming back to Steve's original question, I think you need to think about why the scores are based on the top score of the day.

The idea is to use that as a benchmark for how difficult the course was, and it's a system that isn't just used in the GP series, it's also used in local regional events too.

If the sample size of competitors for picking that benchmark is too small - then you'll get unfair answers.

The theory being that suppose you've got 3 springer shooters who usually put in the top score in their category. There's every chance that all 3 of those could be having a bad day, and that would over inflate everyone elses percentage in that category.

If you have 100 AA/A shooters, it's far less likely that all of them are going to be having a bad day - there's always someone in that size of sample who steps up to the plate to provide a reasonable benchmark score to gauge the overall course difficulty.

Ok, this season we've seen some exceptional shooting which makes things look a bit skewed.. we're seeing Jack and Justin regularly putting in 50's/49's on a GP course which sets the benchmark very high for everyone else.

So for me, I would say that - with such a small sample of Piston shooters, using their scores to dictate the benchmark for that category would cause more problems than it solves.

As I say we also use that system on local events too, and it wouldn't work too well in some regions where they only have a couple of people taking part in Piston class.

It's also a system that is used in other countries too and in the World Championships, and it's nice to be able to make a comparison on performance with shooters from other countries.

Is it entirely fair? No it isn't. But... It's not a bad solution in the absence of a better one. Basing it on the top score out of 5 people instead of basing on the top score out of 145 people - isn't a better solution.
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Old 26th July 2016, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian.Samson View Post
Basing it on the top score out of 5 people instead of basing on the top score out of 145 people - isn't a better solution.
But Brian if you was to change it basing it on 5 shooters would this might encourage some shooter to shot Piston thinking a chance of trophy's thus increasing piston shooters and the sport.?

We in the Fenlands winter league shoot two rounds, one Main PCP and then another Piston with around twenty regular shooters in piston. I don't think we would have as many piston shooters if we didn't separate them into another category instead of combining the into one.

We Fenlands love springers....
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Old 26th July 2016, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian.Samson View Post
That would have a negative impact on attendances Rob.

For example, I had a gun failure at GP5 and couldn't continue shooting - my gun wouldn't physically cock anymore. That's a pain, but not a complete disaster because I know I can drop 2 scores so I can recover from a gun failure at an event.

Consider the situation where I'm not allowed to drop a score? - that would now mean that with a gun failure there's no way I can come back from that - would I have bothered to drive all the way down to Devon for GP6? Or would I have as much incentive to get out of bed when it's blowing a gale and p'ing it down with rain for another GP? Probably not.

The result would be, that if through no fault of my own something happens that means I can't make an event - there's no real point in shooting the rest of them.
May do. May not. Only 1/2 the field actually will have done enough shoots to count even if they do the final shoot. For those that are chasing the series it might actually be an incentive to travel to the furthest shoots rather than skip them. It would perhaps reward those that don't have failures, like passing the chrono for instance, meaning more attention is paid to those aspects.

The few that couldn't complete a course could be outweighed by those that do have to for their position.

For what it's worth though I don't think that many actually chase a position that hard... the scottish GP's showed that, many just turn up, eat, shoot and leave.

Pros and cons either way. Just I think this is an anomly not foreseen, where a win on the day is discarded.
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Old 26th July 2016, 11:47 AM
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I think it's important to remember what Steve's original question is as we all digress.

If springers arn't graded the same as PCPs why don't they have their own scoring like the open class has

I don't think we've answered that. We've debated why they can't have their own scoring, but what we are now saying is that we know we don't want piston scores to affect PCP grades (cos that leads to the ringing effect), but we want PCP scores to affect Piston placings.

I think that's easy to see why that raises an eyebrow. And I think either way my thoughts would be similar to either 1st or 2nd place person in the either of their boats. So if it's to be solved i think we need something that's objective in it's approach.
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  #28  
Old 26th July 2016, 12:00 PM
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I say we drop the grades, shoot whatever you want on the course and let the best pilchard win; if you can't shoot the course then go fishing, coarse fishing of course!
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  #29  
Old 26th July 2016, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by RobF View Post
I think it's important to remember what Steve's original question is as we all digress.

If springers arn't graded the same as PCPs why don't they have their own scoring like the open class has
There are two questions in one there, even though it seems like one

The 2nd question is - why do Open class have their own scoring system. The answer to that is, because they shoot a different course to everyone else (they have an additional 10 gimmes on their course). So it wouldn't be fair to include Open shooters in the same percentage system.

To answer the other question - which is Why don't Piston class have their own percentage system :
  1. It's been that way historically for a long time
  2. It's done that way to be consistent with how regional and international events are scored
  3. The reason for a percentage is not for inclusion in a grading system, it's a benchmark of the overall course difficulty.
  4. Although numbers are growing in Piston Category, the numbers are still a little too small to give a fair sample size to use as a benchmark for course difficulty.

So to illustrate that last point. Suppose just one Piston shooter turns up for an event - do you think it's fair that regardless of how badly they shoot, they still earn 100% towards a league score?

I'm assuming your answer to that is going to be - obviously no, it isn't.

So then the next question is - how many shooters does it take before it becomes a fair sample to use as a benchmark? 2, 3, 50 ?

Lets look at some actual numbers to illustrate that point as well.

So for example, one of the events that Steve is highlighting is GP4 Wales - Steve put in a 34 which was the top springer score for the day. A score of 34 would have put in overall around joint 56th on the day and it wouldn't have been a high enough score to win B grade or C grade for that matter.

So although he scored better than the other Piston shooters - what happened was that all the springer shooters from the small number that entered all had a bad day, Steve also had a bad day too, just a less bad day than the others.

Now compare that to one of the scores he isn't dropping - Tawd Vale GP3 - Steve put in a 43 that day which would have beaten every B and C grade shooter and put him in 2nd place in A grade.

Suppose those two results weren't Steve's... Do you think it is fair that a score that would beat every B and C grade shooter and put you in 2nd place in A grade deserves the same score on a league table as a score that would have put you 56th overall and wouldn't have taken B and C grade?

That's effectively what you're arguing - that those two results deserve the same 100%, when clearly one of them was a significantly better performance than the other.

Last edited by Brian.Samson; 26th July 2016 at 12:30 PM.
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  #30  
Old 26th July 2016, 12:27 PM
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To summarise that - have a look at the results for GP3 and GP4 and answer this question for me :
Do you think that a score of 43 at GP3 is the equivalent of a score of 34 at GP4 ?

It's not the fairest system, but because the number of Piston shooters is still very small, the chances of the opposite anomaly happening are far greater
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