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Old 16th November 2015, 09:17 PM
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gantongunner gantongunner is offline
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Originally Posted by Brian.Samson View Post
I'm not picking on you Col, I just think it's interesting and it's something that HFT has been a huge success at.

Yeah, those 30 gimme points change the gap at the top...

Ok, I know this isn't true exactly because you have the chance of hitting bits of tree or missing a faceplate that's barely there at all etc.. but for arguments sake lets say that out of 60 points - hitting 30 faceplates isn't too taxing for anyone if there gun is anywhere near zeroed.

What that means is suppose the top score of the day is 59 and someone comes in with a 45. They come off the course with a 76%. If HFT used an OXO scoring system those scores would have been 29 vs 15 which is 51%

What you're doing is closing the gap with the top scorer by 25%. That has the psychological advantage of making those top scores seem more within reach for the bottom of the pack. In reality there's a big jump between putting in regular 55's to putting in regular 59's in HFT, but the perception is that it's not that far off and seems more achievable.

I think that really helps to bring new shooters in and helps to keep them coming back for more time after time. By the time they realise they've been conned, it's too late, they're already bitten by the bug and there's no hope for them anymore

Now if you look at FT's scoring system.. take the last NEFTA Winter League for example - the top score was 39 and the lowest score was just 4! and I've seen 50 shot GP's where the low score was around 4 or 5 as well believe it or not. That doesn't do much to encourage new shooters - the gap between last and first seems like such a huge gap that many will be put off trying.

Ok, now let's look at the big hitters of FT - Jack, Ian, Calps, Ozzy, Gilly, Neil Hague, Berty, Conor etc etc... those guys very nearly clear every course they shoot - to them 55 yarders in a bit of wind are gimmes. If there's not much wind the day is won or lost on the standers usually. So if that's the case taking things to the other extreme, why not just do away with sitting shots altogether and make every shot on the course a stander? That'll really test the top shots, no one will ever clear a course and the gap between the average shooter and the superstars of the sport will grow even bigger.

What would that do to the sport? Would it encourage more people to take part or put many off going altogether?

What you need is a balanced course - and yes I'm afraid that means having some easy shots on the course too, how else are you going to get that balance?
the 4 was my godson he actually enjoyed it plated nearly every target and 3 of the 4 he hit were kneelers
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Old 17th November 2015, 08:02 AM
skires skires is offline
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Originally Posted by RobF View Post
There's a saying in racing, if you're on the track and you can't go any faster, your should be learning how to.
I'm not sure I'm interpreting that right but in cricket you try and push the youngsters and newbies to a level where they can compete, but have to be right on top of their game. They develop quicker that way.

So if a lad playing in the under 15s is basically beating every one up at that level, as he's too good, you give him games in the under 17s or in the Senior 2's XI. Not too much for him but he has to be trying hard or he fails.

Let's go back to the example that Bri gave about Jack not going to miss a 42 yard 40mm sitter ( wind inside kill ). So in that case Bri said that it may as well be a 30 yard 40mm sitter as Jack will get it anyway but a lower shooter will stand a better chance on the 30 yarder and get a point on the card.

So we would all put our houses on Jack knocking that 42 yarder down 20 out of 20 ( sorry Jack to use you as an example ... blame Bri ). He'd probably put a tin of pellets through it, as would most of the other top guys so our homes are safe.

Let's look at an average C shooter. This shooter may knock that 42 yarder down 15 times out of 20. So there is a reasonable possibility of a miss. If they hold on aim for too long, start to wobble, snatch the trigger, get the breathing wrong. Those are reasons why they will miss those 5/20. So they have to concentrate and work hard on their technique to knock down that target. That 42 yarder is making them a tougher and better shooter.

Let's say we brought it in to 30 yards and 40mm ( the top guys are going to get it anyway so why not as we've said ). Let's be honest, and there's no disrespect here to youngsters or newbies, a 30 yard 40mm kill with little wind, sitting, isn't a tough target. You can now pretty much go straight at it and it's going down, maybe give it a touch off centre. The average C shooter, who has been doing FT for several months or more, will probably now get this 19/20 or 20/20. He can c0ck the shot up a tad and still knock it down. What is that target teaching them? It's not improving their toughness or consistency as much as the 42 yarder is.

The reason I asked the questions was to try and find out when a target becomes of no test to even C grade shooters ... and hence not really helping their game ( apart from an easy point on the card ).

Again with no disrespect ... but let's say there are youngsters and newbies who will find that 30 yard 40mm sitter in little wind very hard. They may only get it 10/20 or less. So we have to make even easier targets for them to get some points on the board. So do we now make it 20 yards 40mm sitting in little wind. Again, with respect, but being honest, if you are having to add targets like that to give some shooters the odd point then how many are they going to score over the entire course? Maybe 4 or 6 or 8? So they are still going to miss well over 30 out of a 40 target course, and will see their score as 4/40 Vs the winning score of 39/40.

Realistically how many shooters are going to be struggling with that 30 yard 40mm sitter in little wind and scoring overall less than 10/40? Out of a field of 70 maybe 2 or 3? So 68 shooters will shoot at targets that are of no test to them.

If FT is looking at HFT and thinking they definitely got something right by having this 1 point for a plate to get newbies and youngsters in and coming back, then maybe it needs to trial something like that for new and younger shooters. Have a 'Novice' class where newbies can choose to shoot in that class and they score 1 for a plate and 2 for a knockdown. No gonks or prizes ( they wouldn't win anything in any other class anyway ). It's just an introduction grade. When they have been shooting for a wee while and they start scoring 60/80 ( so 20x 2 for knockdowns = 40 and another 20 for plates = T 60/80, so they are knocking down half the targets now ... or make it a 15/40 of targets knocked down ) then they are advised to move into C grade and score 0 and 1 like everyone else. If someone wants to cheat in 'Novice' class and claim they hit the plate then it's only themselves that lose as there are no gonks.

Try it for a year. Advertise it. Encourage people just starting HFT to come and have a go at it at their local FT clubs. See what numbers you attract ... and keep. If it doesn't work ... dump it. If someone just starts and is already knocking down enough targets within a few weeks then they come straight out of 'Novice'. Anyone can choose not to shoot in 'Novice' and go straight in at A grade like you do now. 'Novice' is an option for newbies/youngsters to get into the game and get some points.

Ok we could say at this point that we still have to put some easy targets on the course so that the 'Novice' shooters get some 2's. They don't do that in serious HFT comps. Virtually every shot is tough but you do get that 1 for a plate. So you get some sort of score, which is what some FT guys are saying gets people into the sport and keeps them coming back.

Of course, and I think it's a problem I have, I'm looking at this from a 'competitive sport' angle where people are looking to improve their game etc. I probably have to realise that although this is a serious sport to some, it's just a hobby and some fun for many others. It's very difficult for the BFTA and clubs, course setters to try and accommodate all levels of competitor. For me, club day courses should be biased for consideration for the hobbyists, but regional and national comps should be biased towards competitive sport, and I'm sure that's the case.

Last edited by skires; 17th November 2015 at 08:13 AM.
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Old 17th November 2015, 08:04 AM
skires skires is offline
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... and I've no idea what the postcode is for this.
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Old 17th November 2015, 08:11 AM
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RobF RobF is offline
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The racing quote is that if you find something easy, make sure you use it to help you shoot better.

I did have an idea at the weekend if removing the faceplate entirely would put a little difficulty back into closer shots. (assuming the kill paddle was the correct mm size for the shots intended)
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Old 17th November 2015, 08:27 AM
skires skires is offline
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I'm now into fantasy land Rob ...

I've always thought someone would have come up with a target that indicates a couple of levels of hit.

So say a typical target like we see today with a faceplate and a hole with a paddle at the back. You shoot through the plate hole and the paddle gets knocked back and the target falls over. You make the target tougher by making the hole in the plate smaller. That's where we are now and have been for decades.

So I thought someone would have come up with a target where you have exactly the above ... but the paddle now has a further central hole in it. So the plate hole is say 40mm or even 50mm and it can be that for all targets. The hole in the paddle will be central and smaller ... say 25mm or 20mm or 15mm. If you shoot through the faceplate hole and hit the first paddle then the target falls as it does now. However, if you shoot through the plate hole and get the pellet through the central, smaller hole in the paddle, then the pellet continues to another paddle, or lever, further back and that trips something that sends out an indicator flag ( to the top, bottom or sides ) that indicates that the shot has gone through the central smaller hole ... and you score higher. So you could have 0 plate, 1 for going through the 40/50mm hole and 2 for going through the 15/20/25mm hole. The whole thing resets as you pull the string. So the faceplate stands up and the rear flag is reset. Issues I can think of is a pellet that goes through the main plate hole but splits the inner hole. Could that mean the target doesn't go down and the flag isn't activated either, so you'd effectively get a '0'. The design would have to be worked on to eliminate that. It would also increase costs of targets.

Just dreams ... but it would make it so you could set a plate hole to accommodate all levels and then set inner holes to test the better shooters. The top shots would have to be mainly hitting the inner holes to win the comp. Far more variables in scores and less shoot offs, but youngsters and newbies will get a decent score as they will hit many of the 50mm/40mm holes. No worries either of someone claiming they hit the plate for a 1. If you just hit the plate ... it's a zero.

Last edited by skires; 17th November 2015 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 17th November 2015, 10:07 AM
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Darron Darron is offline
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i actually like the sound of the above.
When I was 5 I wanted to be like George Best
At 10 I wanted to be Nigel Mansell
At 40 I wanted to be like Tiger Woods
At 50 I want to be like Gilly
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Old 17th November 2015, 02:47 PM
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Brian.Samson Brian.Samson is offline
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As a quick reply to Skires post about the average C grader and a 30 yard target. I won't quote it all, but my thinking on that is that it's not just about the ability to shoot a 40mm disc at a given distance.

I bet your average shooter would be able to hit a 42 yard 40mm disc every time on the plinking range - put them in a competition and it's a different prospect.

Part of the reason for that is a psychological one, and that's where your 30 yard easy target helps a less experienced competition shooter by giving them a little respite from relentless hard targets.

Back to what Rob said really, less of a gimme and more of a rest.

It's mentally tiring shooting in a competition, and that's something that a newcomer has to get used to, throwing in the odd easy shot helps not only C graders but everyone by just giving them a little mental breathing space between 100+ yard lanes in a hurricane.
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Old 17th November 2015, 04:12 PM
skires skires is offline
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What we could do with is a couple of dozen C graders saying what they think, but we won't get that on here as it's usually just the same few posters.

I'm a million miles behind you Bri when it comes to FT comp experience so I'll accept what you say.

I'm probably one of those wierdos who needs adrenaline bursting out of my neck to perform. In all the sport I've played I've loved it best when it's got really tense and horrible.

For me, in a comp, I'm spending 3 hours on a HFT course and only probably 15 - 30 mins taking 30 shots at targets. The other 2 hrs 30+ mins when I'm not at the peg I'm taking the p1ss out of my colleagues or talking about bacon sarnies etc. That's when I'm having my 'down' time and respite.
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Old 17th November 2015, 04:24 PM
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I agree with Doz that a curve does induce some difficulty that or the firing line should be at different distances, got to watch for safety on that one though, it's way to easy to get some targets when the lanes are close to one another as you can gauge the distance of the 2nd target using the first one you already knocked, clear as mud that one :-)

I find the longer shots a lot easier to drop, it's the closer smaller kills that I see tripping people up the most.

For now all my son & I have done is HFT but are looking at trying out an FT course near to us in Sussex as my lad loves to fiddle with the scope
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Old 17th November 2015, 04:52 PM
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Conor Conor is online now
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I'm probably one of those wierdos who needs adrenaline bursting out of my neck to perform. In all the sport I've played I've loved it best when it's got really tense and horrible.


Would you enjoy your 42yrd full size on your last shot for a clear round?
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