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Old 17th May 2015, 07:25 AM
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raygun raygun is offline
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The Home Office Circular (HOC) that they quote, 68/97 does tell you why they (the Home Office) have reached the conclusion that sub 12FPE semi's are LEGAL.

It appears that the GTA can't even find evidence that proves their point. Instead they use a HOC which disproves it

I'm glad I'm not paying any fees to the GTA, with a performance like that.

Note. That HOC is from 1997. So from then the Home Office has never had a problem with sub 12FPE semi-auto's. Anything said differently from that are airgun trade lies.

What the GTA has done for us is highlight the fact that we can purchase air guns from the rest of the E.U,. at favourable prices for ourselves, delivered to our door.
If I was a member of the GTA I would be furious with them.

Old 17th May 2015, 08:28 AM
David BASC David BASC is offline
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We are very aware of the letter from the GTA, copies were kindly forwarded to me by several members last week. Why the GTA have suddenly taken this view, and chosen to go public at this time is a mystery.

May I respectfully suggest that its not the best thing to do, to raise the prospect of banning some types of airguns just when a new parliament has been elected...

Surely, logic says that the amendments to the Firearms Act that were made in 97 referred to those firearms that had been held under Section 1. So pistols / handguns were prohibited unless muzzle loaders, and semi automatic rifles were banned except for 22rf

There was no intent for this to impact on sub 12 / 6 air rifles / pistols

Its true that the 97 amendment was rather clumsy in its wording in parts, which caused confusion hence the Home office circular later that year that sort to clarify, and this was further clarified by the CPS.

Its been said on another forum that BASC don't make the law, that's very true, nor does AMTA, GTA or indeed the Home Office! The law is changed and made through Parliament, and there have been no changes to the 97 act in the regard of airguns SA , pump action ect.

I note on another forum where this was being debated in light of the GTA newsletter, the thread was locked last night when questions were being raised as to who went to the HO and why, reasonable questions but I guess that moderators can take their own view on when to shut a thread

As and when I get any further updates on this subject i will of course let you all know.

Old 17th May 2015, 09:29 AM
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Conor Conor is offline
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Please feel free to name the other forum David.
He who never made a mistake never learned!
He who never missed never shot!
Old 17th May 2015, 09:57 AM
Smudgerii Smudgerii is offline
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Hope they don't lock it again, I'm having great fun
Old 17th May 2015, 10:44 AM
JasonGoldsmith66 JasonGoldsmith66 is offline
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Companies House info/details are available

If anyone wants to order info. - so that the public & consumer and members of this fine forum want to know - who is who, and what is the agenda being set by whom at the GTA...

image hosting 12mb


"FIREARMS LEGISLATION - The GTA has permanent links with MPs and Members of the House of Lords and regularly lobbies Parliamentarians on behalf of its Members."

Ok, so >>>

Last edited by JasonGoldsmith66; 17th May 2015 at 10:52 AM.
Old 17th May 2015, 01:36 PM
bigtoe bigtoe is offline
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TD is clearly saying semi auto is illegal....he is wrong, paragraph 9 and 10 from the HO clearly state it was never the intention to trap sub12 air rifles and sub6fpe pistols into this ban.

He clearly can not read...I can't see how any one can question what Widdecombe wrote...

For anyone who has not see the document clicky here to read it...pdf

The fact is he wants them banned, as do the GTA, we MUST fight this, who elected them as our spokesmen/representatives?

I know I did not!

Join with BASC fighting this, collectively we have a stronger voice against this.

Paragraph 8 is what TD and the GTA are quoting, 9 and 10 further clarify that sub12/6 are exempt from that ban.

Last edited by bigtoe; 17th May 2015 at 01:50 PM.
Old 17th May 2015, 01:51 PM
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oldtanky7642 oldtanky7642 is offline
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I'm with BASC on this 110%, i've told them that.
Old 17th May 2015, 01:52 PM
JasonGoldsmith66 JasonGoldsmith66 is offline
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Originally Posted by bigtoe View Post
TD is clearly saying semi auto is illegal....he is wrong, paragraph 9 and 10 from the HO clearly state it was never the intention to trap sub12 air rifles and sub6fpe pistols into this ban.

He clearly can not read...I can't see how any one can question what Widdecombe wrote...

For anyone who has not see the document clicky here to read it...pdf

The fact is he wants them banned, as do the GTA, we MUST fight this, who elected them as our spokesmen/representatives?

I know I did not!

Join with BASC fighting this, collectively we have a stronger voice against this.

Paragraph 8 is what TD and the GTA are quoting, 9 and 10 further clarify that sub12/6 are exempt from that ban.

touché and several cracks of the whip ...

upload img

Last edited by JasonGoldsmith66; 17th May 2015 at 01:55 PM.
Old 17th May 2015, 02:15 PM
cloverleaf cloverleaf is offline
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Firstly, hats off to everyone involved in this thread - it's fantastic to be able to discuss this situation in a mature and measured manner without fear of having the thread pulled because it doesn't suit someone's agenda..

Secondly, apologies for the long post - I'm not known for my conciseness and there's a lot to discuss
Originally Posted by oldtanky7642 View Post
Yep, apparently ( and don't take this as gospel truth , as I cant confirm this third hand news ) some twit phoned the home office and told them he was worried that some one might do a drive by shooting with one.
Given the murky and niche nature of the current situation I think it's safe to assume that this idiot wasn't just some curtain-twitching member of the public, riddled with paranoia after reading some sensationalist article in the Daily Mail.

So let's break down the possbilities. The semi-auto airgun debate has pretty much been restricted to the shooting community; so it's reasonable to consider that whoever phoned the HO is actively involved in airgun shooting.

Secondly, it has to be someone with an agenda. Of course it would be overly-simplistic to discount the possibility that there are "normal" members of the shooting community who have sufficient reservations about semi-autos to bother calling the HO, but...

Of all the organisations who have expressed an opinion on SA air rifles, the only one that's consistantly and repeatedly claimed that they are illegal / attempted to prevent their import and distribution is the AMTA. While I have no proof to suggest that the call came from one of their members / staff, I'd not be the least bit surprised if this was the case.

This kind of shady, underhand and manipulative behavior would be just the kind of stunt I'd expect from them too; given their extremely dubious track record up until this point. The fact that threads on this subject have apparently been banned on the BBS (which has significant ties with the AMTA) adds fuel to the speculation.

I think it's in all our interests to try and find out who this individual was; as they're clearly pursuing a personal agenda that's at odds with the interests of the rest of the airgun shooting community.

If the call did turn out to be from the AMTA I think that should raise further, grave concerns over their legitimacy and massive potential to damage the sport through their selfish and insaitable lust for control.

Originally Posted by David BASC View Post
Dear All,

as far as we are concerned the wording on the CPS web site is clear, semi auto / self loading airguns that are sub 12 or sub 6 are NOT caught under Sec1 / 5 so QED they are not subject to Sec 1 restrictions.

Apparently some other organisations take a different view...but the law has not changed, the CPS have not changed their view...

Issues like this are supposed to go through BSSC so as to ensure no one goes off on one or a personal crusade that mucks it up for the rest of us...waiting ti see if this was the case
Thank you for clarifying this David - it's great to have contribution from someone in an informed position (and from a legitimate association) such as yourself.

Originally Posted by raygun View Post
There are members of the airgun trade who should hang their heads in shame.
Indeed. I think the sport is in significant danger of being irreparably damaged by the selfish agendas of some who use claims of industry representation as a vehicle to further their own personal agendas.

Originally Posted by rich View Post
As far as I am concerned, Wallace was sleeping peacefully. Only a fool pokes a sharp stick in a sleeping lion's ear.
Indeed; IIRC the law regarding semi-automatic firearms has been in place for nearly 30yrs, with many SA airguns (mainly pistols) being bought and used responsibly since. Clearly it would seem that the government have no issue with this situation, as long as it in itself does not become an issue. The best thing we can do is keep quiet; but we also need to silence the idiot(s) who persist in stirring up the hornets nest with dubious claims in pursuit of their own agenda.

Originally Posted by raygun View Post
These people are the same fools and idiots that got us the baseless 12FPE limit with it's stupidly difficult wording.

The same fools and idiots that got us AT where we as customers are hung out to dry. All the legal responsibility but no ability to comply with the law.

Their final stroke of genius was to force people to buy from the E.U. where they could not only get delivery to their door but save themselves hundreds of pounds. Now they will wonder why people will check prices from E.U. dealers on many other airguns.

Don't think "Idiots" really covers it

I don't think the AMTA were responsible for the sub-12 limit (although I believe the motives and methods used were very much the same), however I agree about the rest. IMO this bunch of self-appointed idiots have absolutely no legitimacy in their attempts to dictate what the industry and the sport may and may not do; and they should be treated as such.

It seems clear that the AMTA's pursuit of it's own agenda is damaging to the shooter, the sport and perhaps even the industry they claim to be protecting..

Originally Posted by oldtanky7642 View Post
Might have to have a re-think on what publications I buy now, and cancel subscriptions
One of the best things you can do IMO (at the risk of missing Jim Tyler's excellent technical articles ). As we've discussed there's an unholy trinity of influence in the airgun world - the AMTA, the other forum and Archant-published magazines.

While as shooters our ability to affect the AMTA is dubious; we can make our disgust felt by boycotting the mags and the other forum - indeed it's heartening to see the stranglehold held by the Dear Leader on the other forum beginning to loosen as more and more people become aware of the devious and underhand manner the way the forum is run to satisfy the desires of some of those in control.

These people have no right to dictate to us what we buy or how we shoot - don't afford their attempts to do so any legitimacy whatsoever. Treat them with the dismissal and contempt their conduct deserves.

Originally Posted by JasonGoldsmith66
BASC, should send a Freedom of Information request letter to the Home Office get the name of the finger pointer

...actually ANYONE can do that, as you have RIGHTS to KNOW >>

and specifically >>>>
Would the identity of a caller be the sort of information the HO would be obliged to give out under FOI?

Would they be obliged to give the name of said caller or just what organisation they claimed to be representing? If this has legs I'm happy to apply..

Originally Posted by pmb View Post
Is it right that the difference between the H5 and the semi-auto H5 is only a small handful of spare parts, that can be retro-fitted to change one version to the other?
I initially thought the same; but it's not quite that straight-forward. The main differences are in the striker and exhaust valve assys; however there are also a number of other small differences from comparing diagrams and parts lists for both rifles.

So far I've found that the cocking lever has an additional locking grub screw in addition to the one that holds it onto it's boss - presumably in an effort to prevent it shaking loose. No big deal here as you could always simply add another one.

In addition the frame has an additional tapped hole on the LHS next to the mag housing; allowing a bolt to be fitted whose head sits above the spring for the mag-lock-out lever - presumably again this is there to prevent the spring wondering during sustained fire. I suspect this wouldn't be essential but was obviously put there for a reason.

The diagrams also appear to show differences in the mag housings of both guns - it looks like the standard H5 uses an O-ring to seal against the rear of the mag, while the H5A doesn't (presumably to reduced drag that might lead to reliability problems). I think the actual sealing mech in the H5A is new and patented, and is possibly omitted from the diagrams for this reason.

Of course it could just be that some of the differences are upgrades now applied to both models and that the diagram for the standard H5 is just older. I'd be very interested to speak to anyone who's recently purchased a manually-operated H5

Originally Posted by raygun View Post
I see that I have been mentioned in dispatches on the BBS.

Yes it's true that I have been banned for life. There are of course reasons for that.
Tbh Ray I suspect even my cat could get banned from the BBS; I don't think anyone who knows that forum would for a second think any worse of a individual for having been banned from there - in fact I think many wear the ban like a badge of honour

I've had a run-in with the mod you mention and found him to be blunt, confrontational and generally very unhelpful. Surprised I didn't get a ban myself as a result tbh.

I would like to make it clear that, while the BBS as a whole gets a (regular, usually-deserved) panning, not everyone involved in the site's running is a bad apple - I've had regular dealings with BTDT (Jim) and T20 (Mick) and they're some of the nicest blokes I've had the pleasure of meeting, and do not have a bad word to say about them.

I suspect the real issues lie with others on the mod team, plus the fact that the site is owned by a retailer so there will always be an underlying agenda to protect.

Anyway, I for one feel very similarly to you and appreciate your tenacity in your pursuit of the AMTA
Old 17th May 2015, 03:06 PM
Cam Cam is offline
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Location: Southport
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Many sincere thanks to Mr Jasongolsdmith66 for posting the HO circular 68/97

This is the CPS guidance: -

Go to: Definitions of Firearms and Air Weapons > Air weapons

This is the response I received asking if the above-mentioned CPS guidance is still valid:-

Campbell Grant
From: Lassman Adam []
Sent: 30 April 2015 13:32
To: ''
Subject: FW: Semi Automatic sub 12 foot pound energy air rifles.
Page 1 of 3
Dear Mr Grant,
The CPS link is still valid and has not been superseded.
The HO guidance does not mention semi-automatic air rifles specifically, but this is implicit whenever the
guidance mentions air rifles.
A semi-automatic air rifle which has an energy rating of under 12 foot lbs does not need to be on a
I hope that this helps.

Would someone who is not banned from the "other" forum, please give them the facts.

Please forgive me, but how much clearer can it effing get?

Last edited by Cam; 17th May 2015 at 03:13 PM.
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