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Old 25th February 2014, 10:24 PM
Ste Hughes's Avatar
Ste Hughes Ste Hughes is offline
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The BFTA is hardly bordering bankruptcy, and after all how much money does it ultimately need to sit on?

By running at a loss its only putting money into the clubs that hold shoots for it right? Can that be a bad thing at all?

I'd rather see the clubs that make the BFTA series possible get the money the BFTA are feeding back down rather than "buying a national ground" and other ideas that have been said.
My silence is not weakness, but the beginning of my revenge.
Old 25th February 2014, 10:24 PM
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I know it isn't a popular position, but I have always felt uncomfortable with affiliated memberships to national sporting bodies.

I am an angler as well as a shooter. I pay subscriptions to several clubs for their specialist or local offerings, and I pay an individual membership of a national body that represents the sport. I was personally involved in the drawn out process that was needed to tear down the old affiliated structure that left individuals denied a route to their national body.

I will not be drawn into any criticism of the BFTA or its officers; they work hard to provide the opportunities for me to enjoy the sport, and get precious little thanks for their time and efforts. But the community of shooters as a whole should not blinker itself to the fact that there are other ways of running an organisation, and a need for a civilised discussion around those options. Only then can a realistic decision be made about whether change is appropriate


Old 26th February 2014, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by RobF View Post
I don't know where you're getting the £50 from Chris... could you point me to it?

Says here Rob right at the bottom.
Old 26th February 2014, 06:04 AM
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I don't have a problem with the structure of The BFTA or how it's run and who by. I think Bri and i are on the same page with wondering why the need to hide the financial information.

I have absolutely no problems at all with expenses being paid for those making the effort to help in setting up BFTA shoots ............ but why the lack of transparancy and the 'you don't need to know' attitude?

Like i said...i will talk to my rep at the weekend and propose that a proposal is made (within the constitutional rules) for the accounts to be published on the BFTA site in full detail, including all expenses paid for what and to whom. If i get no where with that then i always have other avenues.

I don't know about the rest of you but i want to know (exactly) where MY money is going.

Please don't misunderstand that my aim is to undermine the BFTA or those that work within it.....if i won a shed load of cash on the euromillions then the BFTA and HFT would get a couple of million each to raise the profile of both sports. I love my shooting but am a little uncomfortable with the feeling that BFTA is withholding the financial data.
Old 26th February 2014, 07:46 AM
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The requests on this thread have been for a copy of the Excel spreadsheet which was used at the AGM.
No organisation should hand around active documents such as spreadsheets for many reasons.

Time costs.
If you want an NSRA annual report type of document then that takes a lot more time since then each section of the accounts is presented in text with summaries. These sections are almost always provided by the auditors. That costs additional money for their time, the production costs and the printing costs. Which means more expenditure and less for FT. If that becomes a requirement then of course it will be done (we would be looking at 2016?).

The Treasurer's report complies with the existing constitution and bylaws.

I understand your concern and will gladly accept all written proposals for changes to the constitution or bylaws and motions provided that they are submitted by a Regional Representative in good time for the AGM and in time for the proposals to be seen by all the regions ahead of their own meetings (e.g. their AGMs) so that they can be reviewed before the meeting in November. So, have the submissions ready by September.

Any changes which would incur additional costs should be costed and sources of funding identified.

It is my understanding that each and every item in the accounts was examined and, if needed, queried by the accountant as being a valid use of BFTA resources.

I will make no further contribution to this thread.
BFTA Secretary 2012-2014
CSFTA Secretary 2014-2016

Last edited by neilL; 26th February 2014 at 10:21 AM. Reason: clarification on requests
Old 26th February 2014, 08:13 AM
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Waelwulfas Waelwulfas is offline
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Originally Posted by chrisc View Post
I think you'll find that was a proposal that didn't go through
2013/14/15/16 BFTA Grand Prix - Open Class Winner
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Old 26th February 2014, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by neilL View Post
The requests have been for a copy of the Excel spreadsheet which was used at the AGM.
No worries Neil, but we have areas of the BFTA site where you need to be a member to log in so posting the financial data there shouldn't be a problem and Bri Samson has already said that he will assist with the site to enable more clarity.

But it's the attitude above that really starts to annoy. I'm sure that myself , and others do not apreciate being given the finger when asking for this info.

Like i said i will go the official route even though i already know the answer from your quote above.

Hide behind constitution and bylaws all you like but not allowing the people who pay for the BFTA to exist to see how the money is spent is inherently un-constitutional.

I suggest that you stop being petulant and reply to the thread as, unlike the finances, we can keep this in the open.

Last edited by chrisc; 26th February 2014 at 08:37 AM.
Old 26th February 2014, 09:36 AM
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Chris, you're not being given the finger. Nor is anyone else.

There is no divine right that just because you attended a shoot or have a BFTA card that the BFTA has to make detailed accounts public and to you. That would be the same as me therefore asking for Nefta's accounts at the classic, the NSRA accounts because I visited the Champs, UKAHFT because I shot them in the past, or all the other series that are only in existence by the grace of volunteers.

Accounts have to be provided as per the constitution of the organisation, or in the absence of that, if it's run differently, by law. But that gives no more credence to a claim than it does for any other customer of a company to ask that company for it's accounts, in detail. Some may be public record by requirement of law, others may be made public in the interests of public relations. However beyond the requirements of the constitution, there is no need. The treasurer has said many times that he will happily answer any accounts questions at a BFTA meeting.

The accounts have been audited by professional accountants. As by their continued qualification they need to look at any areas of impropriety, fraud, etc and have a duty to ensure that hasn't taken place. It's the same as an engineer signing off on an airframe repair. You don't get the right to xray the wing because you're getting on the plane, and the paperwork is only provided within the laws that govern air safety.

Neil has provided the answers to great degree. He is hardly being petulant. The finances are in the open way beyond what the constitution of the organisation dictates, which you aren't a member of. It can hardly be unconstitutional if it abides by it's own constitution can it???

The BFTA site areas are all public, save internal discussion areas on the forum which are for BFTA officers only. There's no way of ensuring sign ups on the BFTA site are just card holders without colossal amounts of work on my part. Even then it's not 100% secure in that fact.

Try and understand you are not a member of the BFTA. Nor is your club. The only member is your region. They are represented by your region reps which you vote in. You pay to attend shoots, and for the benefits of the card. You do not have any ownership of the BFTA than I do, and any more than you do of any other organisation or company.
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Old 26th February 2014, 09:57 AM
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Deleted. I will go the official route and see what happens.

Last edited by chrisc; 26th February 2014 at 10:21 AM.
Old 26th February 2014, 10:24 AM
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The BFTA is 9 regions of the country, 3 elected officers and some co-opted officers.
Those that attended the AGM 2013 are:
BFTA Officers Present
Name Title
Roger Moy Chairman
Roger Moy President/AMTA Rep
Neil Long Secretary
Simon Evans Grading Officer/SWEFTA V Rep
Andrew Slade Treasurer
Shaun Shore Competition Manager
Lyndeen Calvert Development Officer
Sam Reece Minute Secretary
Tony Cook HVP
Mick Woodhead NSRA Rep/ CSFTA V Rep
Liz Moy HVP

Regions Represented
FFTA Cliff Burt V Rep
FFTA Richard Greenwood Rep
SEFTA Barry McDonald V Rep
WAFTA Pat Isaacs V Rep
WAFTA Howard Lloyd Rep
MFTA Andrew Gillott V Rep
NWFTA Carl Knapper V Rep
NWFTA Dave Schofield Rep
NEFTA Trevor Ryan Rep
NEFTA David Robinson V Rep
20 members present and 8 regions represented. (V Rep = voting rep)

When you criticise the BFTA these are the people that you are criticising. The BFTA is not an entity it is a collection of people who give up their time to help further Field Target.
At the AGM the Treasurer offered detailed accounts of where money comes from and where we spend it. These accounts are meticulously audited by John Lewis.

The list of those present is copied from the AGM Minutes 2013. In those Minutes you will read that the Secretary, Treasurer and Competition Manager are all leaving their posts after the AGM 2014. Perhaps those most critical on this thread might wish to stand for the vacant posts.

Here are some facts about competition income and expenditure in 2013 (does not include Euros)
120 entrants x £5 = £600
9 x £75 = £675
Total income = £1275
Trophies = £538.24
Set up cost = £395

From that weekend the competition account was £341.76 in credit.

GP Season

1222 x £3.50 = £4227
GP trophies = £3025
50 End of season trophies = £825.60
Open class perpetual trophy = £47.99
Team entries = £240
Team medals = £185.76

From the GP season the competition account was £382.65 in credit

So far the completion account is £724.41 in credit

45 entrants at £5 = £225
Trophies = £204.87
Set up cost = £485
Trophies = £240.38
Badges = £150

From the Masters/Showdown weekend the competition account was £855.25 in debit.

For the complete season the competition account was £130.84 in debit

Here are some other items purchased for competitions in 2013.
Banners = £798
Chronograph and stand = £142.98
Dongle = £29.99
Add to this regular use items such as: cards (in 2013 we used about 2000 cards), clocks, batteries, stationary items.

It is clear that competition expenditure is outstripping income.
This was allowed as the BFTA committee was supportive in lessening the amount that was held in the account.

There is another source of income for the BFTA and that is the registration cards at £3.50. This pays for the administration of the organisation such as: BFTA meetings, insurance, officers’ expenses, and affiliation to other bodies …

For the past two years the BFTA has refunded £0.50 per card to national associations; in 2013 EFTA received £541.50.
This season will see a change of funding from £6.50:£3.50 (region: BFTA) to £6:£4 with the BFTA paying the raffle prizes of £150. This means a region that attracts 150 shooters will receive £75 more than they did in 2013 and if 100 shooters £50 more.

These actions, including keeping entry costs fixed for many years, are deliberate to decrease the amount the BFTA holds.
However, there is need that it holds sufficient funds to cover the outgoings of at least one year. So far this year I have signed cheques for £4,500 without any income.

In 2014 I will provide a detailed account of income and expenditure for competitions. I will share it with regions after completion of the Showdown approximately 1 month before the AGM. This I hope will inform the committee as to whether entry fees need to be increased and what is an appropriate amount to hold in reserve.

Shaun Shore (21181 – BFTA Competition Manager)
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