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Old 21st November 2013, 11:15 AM
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luddite luddite is offline
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Originally Posted by Sammo View Post

It may have been a better idea if, in the passing of the rule that a small piece of rubber matting 8 inches square by 1 inch thick was to be supplied at the kneeling lanes. For the use of knee placement on the ground.

Shooters should think themselves lucky that they can at least use their bum bag to rest there knee upon.

There are those among us who are not as young, agile, fit or as healthy as we once were but we get on with it. Why can't people accept that when they applied for a BFTA card they agreed to apply to the rules of the BFTA

How about a bit of pebble dashing on the pad just to make it more challenging?
Less is more.

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Old 21st November 2013, 06:00 PM
DeanB DeanB is offline
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Default Position of elbow

Originally Posted by neilL View Post
Sigh... The AGM motions are just that - individual items proposed in a meeting.

The 2014 Main Rules, GP Rules, etc still have to be compiled - huge thanks to Shaun when that task is done.

So the outcome will be a revised set of Rules which have to be reviewed to ensure they make sense and that any change doesn't conflict with some other aspect of the Rules. Hence the January EGM where the AGM motions are reviewed, the new Rules reviewed and motions can be made to modify/add/delete as needed. Hopefully just minor edits at that point which can be checked by email/forum comms.

Then, and only then, will I upload them to the BFTA site and do my best to publicise them and point out any changes finally agreed on.

So -- everyone's task is to discuss the changes which your regional rep has informed you of except they may only have their own notes from the meeting.

Just one minor issue is that I have been trying to get the draft of the AGM minutes written up to a state which I can circulate within the committee for a first review - are they accurate and with no omissions? Once that has cycled through a couple of times I will put a PDF of the _Draft_ Minutes up on the BFTA site. Even then they are not Final until accepted by the committee in January. These will be official and not just individual member's handwritten notes.

So everyone is going on about items listed in the Agenda at present which are pretty much the same as will appear in the Minutes. I have no idea what committee members made notes of or have passed along in conversations.

It would have been really helpful to the committee if much of the discourse here had been done in local regional AGMs and meetings before the BFTA AGM and a cohesive set of feedback presented there.

To summarise my understanding of kneeling

3 points of contact with the ground (2 feet plus knee)
Rifle supported by shoulder and leading hand
Leading hand arm supported by elbow on the knee

mud, sharps
elevation, declination of targets
strain on toes and ankle

Open Class

It's been a hard day so please accept apoogies if I have misunderstood - does the elbow have to be on the knee? I've seen very people people do this and most seem to advise against - most put forearm on the knee. I have an old video of Terry Doe advising strongly against "elbow on knee technology". Bought it when I first started shooting and it was old then.
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Old 21st November 2013, 07:56 PM
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No Dean, it can be as you describe as long as the wrist is not supported

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Old 21st November 2013, 08:17 PM
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In Ebern there were some extreme uphill kneeling shots, where the normal elevation was not sufficient and some shooters adopted a half kneeling/half standig style.

Can the left arm be off the knee completely?
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Old 21st November 2013, 08:59 PM
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Yes Alex and welcome to STB
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Old 21st November 2013, 09:34 PM
neilL neilL is offline
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Sorry - I really didn't want to make it seem so specific but yes, of course, the elbow has to move to accommodate the "complications" - "elevation, declination of targets". This is the heart of the problems with defining positionals - targets are up, down and sideways :-)

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Old 22nd November 2013, 04:45 AM
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Can you not just raise or lower your knee to suit target height??

We have elevated and declined targets in HFT, for which you have to adapt your stance....all part of the challenge imo
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Old 22nd November 2013, 02:27 PM
5teve L 5teve L is offline
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Originally Posted by blackscale View Post
Can you not just raise or lower your knee to suit target height??

We have elevated and declined targets in HFT, for which you have to adapt your stance....all part of the challenge imo
The issue it seems Michael, is that some people have been using bags to kneel/sit on at the same time, or using them in such a way that the most of the bag is either at the rear, thus giving extra support under the thigh/buttocks, or the knee/shin is pushed right into the bag, thus forming a V in said bag & giving extra support.
The rules are to/have changed slightly to say that most of the bag must now be in front of the shooters knee, so it is only used to stop the knee going in the dirt. How this will be policed I have no idea, I think either no bag or some other aid for the knee (small carpet on said lanes, rubber mat, etc.) if you really don't like getting dirty would be alot easier to police.

Thats how I have read it anyway.

Oh & FT'ers like to moan alot over the winter.
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Old 22nd November 2013, 02:39 PM
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Brian.Samson Brian.Samson is offline
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Originally Posted by 5teve L View Post

Oh & FT'ers like to moan alot over the winter.
That is such an unfair comment!!!

We like to moan all year long I'll have you know! During the winter months when it's a bit chilly outside, we like to moan on forums from the comfort of our own homes, during the summer we like to moan out in the sunshine at GP's

All that's happened is that the BFTA have now adopted the UKAHFT kneeling position
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Old 22nd November 2013, 03:50 PM
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Default Kneeler

Just been out today to practice Kneelers and Standers as they have been my weak point for a while now.
First took Kneelers how I have always taken them. I use the bag under the shin to support my ankle mainly and my knee is also supported by the bag to keep it off the ground. I consider this to be kneeling as it certainly is not sitting or standing. The fact that the rifle is waving about because my left hand is not supported by my knee is what causes this position to be a harder shot than a sitter.

I thought next, lets try the position which is being advocated now. RH Knee supported by the rear edge of the bag, shin in the air and RH toes only touching the ground. (I'm right handed).
I found this to make no difference to my ability or inability to hit long kneelers, but can definitely state it just makes my ankle hurt.
I am considerably old, not overweight, relatively fit and very agile, but it still hurts.

So I have come to the conclusion that the new rule will only bring pain to us mature shooters. If in fact the shooter suffers from any form of ankle pain; arthritis or just stiff knees....a lot of pain.

I don't really see why we can't use the bag in contact with the ground, in any way that makes the shot more comfortable particularly as a bag is part of the FT kit.
I have heard that some people use very large armchair bags and can gain some advantage using these for kneeler. I can't say I have seen any examples of this, but if its true, then maybe the bag size is what should be the focus of a rule change.
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