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Old 2nd October 2013, 12:21 PM
skires skires is offline
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Fair comment ... one group from one batch from one shooter isn't conclusive ( Si's ). Your results seemed to support the theory.

I still think though that the ultimate test in both yours and Simon's case has been a bloke shooting the pellets to check the groups ... outside in wind. So we are always guessing as to whether the groups and anomalies are due to the pellets or the wind or the shooter.

It would have to be done with readings at the muzzle ... maybe at a mid point ... and at the destination ... and indoors with no wind ... and with some sort of vice/clamp and remote trigger to remove shooter error.
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Old 2nd October 2013, 12:39 PM
neilL neilL is offline
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Clamping to a bench would also remove the possibility of perhaps an unconscious aiming at the group rather than a dot or cross on the target.
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Old 2nd October 2013, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by RobF View Post
Really need to test indoors, to separate the data.
You're right, Rob. I used to test my pellets at the factory, JSB has a 50 m test tunnel. No wind, no shooter errors, just the barrel and the pellets.
When testing in real-life conditions, I used to shoot the pellets alternatively, aiming at the same cross but with different dots so there are two groups and the hits don't spoil the aiming and the wind effects are the same for the 30-30 shots.
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Old 2nd October 2013, 02:01 PM
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Indoor is the way to go, plus dial closer so the pellets drop below the aimpoint keeping it clean and precise
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Old 2nd October 2013, 03:23 PM
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Default More for you Brian, some alternatives?

The figures over the chrono yesterday had me wondering, i expected better but hey ho i know i can group as the pipe lane proved and has done over the last few weeks since I installed it.
Wind is a huge factor on accuracy.

So, I headed off to Salmons Leap FTC (Dont tell arms dealer I have set up an fT club in his back garden) as I wanted to include Arms dealer and his ev2 in the test, plus some other pellets.
Plus I had to pick up pellets off him in part ex for my stock!

Anyway, We got set up and despite protecting the chrono, I managed to shot it 0 times but another 4 hits are indented. We dont know where they came from but have decided to re-design the protective Cover on the Chrono lol.

We tested Arms dealers Ev2 at the chrono. This is a John Ostler reged ev2 and as little jack found out last week when he had a go, is very accurate, I think Jack found it pellet on pellet? Anyway, at the muzzel it recorded (die 46) 768,776,773,774,772,774. So pretty good.

I went first, so this is string 1 (just incase Fisher is feeling down and needs another laugh lol)

Main group is approx 20 x 10ml with one low and one blown right, I was aiming at the large black dot but had set a couple of clicks under. Not a Mego group, but given it ws another day in a light breeze very good.
50m die 46 4.51

Chrono reading for the string was


String 2 was Arms dEalers first turnDie 46, 4.52
Main group of 5 11 x 10mm with 5 left or right another 10 ml, but one that went high

Chrono readings at 50m were


Sting 3, 4.52 again, Arms dealer


string 3

sting 4. Arms dealer but a change to 4.51

This time, i asked Peter to call out the point of impact and made notes

545 Dot (right height)
549 Same hole
597 same hole
603 2 pellets high
599 1 pellet high
601 2 pellets high (same hole as s4)
600 1 pellet high
580 1 pellet high
598 2 pellets high
603 2 pellets high

11 - 602 Dot
12 - 596 - Pulled high

We did two extra as we noticed the first two were low after switching from 4.52, so we wondered if different lead/pellet made a difference to the first couple of shots on this string as the others were more consistant?

String 5 and 4.51 again, arms dealer

599 level
567 level
578 level
563 level
571 2 pellets high
553 level
600 2 pellets high
604 2 pellet high
559 level
550 level
570 level

String 6 Die 34 peter

598 level
594 level
597 level
569 2 pellets high
597 level
597 level
596 level
593 level
595 2 pellet low
596 2 pellet low

Not a great group and would not be chosen as the die to use.

String 7 and another change. This time Die 43 which are the "short" type of Jsb, often described as with a filled in skirt.
The cross top right of photo was aim point!

535 low
521 level
537 level
528 high
529 high
528 low
540 low
535 low
525 low
526 level

String 8 - Simon Die 34

597 loe
576 low
600 high
596 high
568 level
596 level
595 level
597 level
597 high
566 low

string 9
simon Die 46 4.52

Unfortunatley i deleted the string info lol.

However, it was from memory much the same as the other d46 (4.52) in fps variation and apart from the wind blowing pellets r -L, apart from 2 most were level.

so, not sure if the different reading from different guns and batches of jsb exacts is of any use to you, but thats what we found.
Arms dealer was as bemused as I was yesterday to see his shots some 30+ fps lower than expected hitting the Line / staying level.
We both are AA class shooters and know when we pull shots, especially to the extent of 10-15 ml.
Nope, the high low fps variation is a strange one but it seems to have no consistant influence on pellet impact point?

I dont think Ii will repeat the experiment unless i am sure I am in a "no wind" situation as I know the wind causes left and right drift and now wonder if it has any other effect? I donty have a 50m indoor lane but there days when there is no wind outdoors

What we did decide upon was die 46 are the best batch of pellets for both our guns, die 43 (short) are rubbish as we would not use die 34 while we can get die 46!

Interessting thread and ideas, answers in laymans terms please.

Shall spend Friday testing 19m standers at tondu unless you can think of anything else that helps?
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Old 2nd October 2013, 03:47 PM
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Default What ?

What Happened to the Wonder Barrel ? the wonder barrel coupled to the wonder muzzle brake would surely end with wonder scores . The only thing i Wonder about , is why i read simons drivel ??? HOLLY
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Old 2nd October 2013, 07:05 PM
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Brian.Samson Brian.Samson is offline
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Thanks again Si and Arms Dealer, excellent work and a lot of data to study there!.

On first inspection, I would have said that string 6 was mega consistent over the chrono downrange but your comment was that the group wasn't good and you wouldn't have chosen that die as a keeper.

The weight of evidence is building up to suggest that this theory isn't a good one.

It does lead me to some other thoughts - if the theory doesn't hold up, then neither do the calculations used in ballistic calculators. Which is a bit of a shocker I guess
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Old 2nd October 2013, 07:26 PM
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I'll see if I can nab a vice when I'm next up at my folks. Then I can take it indoors and chrono at 30 odd yds.
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Old 2nd October 2013, 07:35 PM
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It's a pity Doncaster is so far away from here, Brian, we could lend you a 42 yard wind free tunnel for your investigations.

For a very long time I've felt that the ballistic models we accept as given are not the full story. Nailing down what the differences are, and what causes them, will be worth a Hon Ph.D. for somebody.
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Old 2nd October 2013, 08:07 PM
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Yorkshiretea Yorkshiretea is offline
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Interesting reading lads, keep the info coming.
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