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Old 9th June 2011, 07:07 PM
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NJR 100 NJR 100 is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Member of: Avon Hawks, Tondu, Oaktree
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Originally Posted by holly View Post
I am getting bored with mini kills already and the season is young . just to many of em . how about lowering the amount of targets to 40 . no mini kills , just 40 bloody hard targets . that way we could get three groups in with a squeeze ??? HOLY
As quickly as you have become boared with the mini kills, i would find a course of full kills equally as boing.
The trouble is with lowering the number of targets is that scores will be tighter than they are now? Quite often think that 50 is alot in a Gp but i dont think lowering to 40 will make it better at NATIONAL level?
Stick to two sessions unless numbers grow so that more are needed. But in the current finanical crisis i dont see it for at least 2 +years?

Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I was thinking this the other day,for me mini kills do nothing to test or push your kit,they only come into play when its windy.Looking at scores and how many people are only missing 1 or 2 shots due to better guns scopes,is it time to increase the maximum distance to 65/75 yds.I shoot cherry tomatoes at 90yds for a bit of fun at my mum and dads with my Dommi so they are well capable,I'm not saying go that far as you need a couple of shots to get the wind right,but maybe a few on a course would sort the close scores out.Just a thought.I know I'd get much more satisfaction hitting a 40mm kill at 75yds than a 15mm reducer at 25yds
Agree that a 25ml kill in no wind is little challenge at 35 yards, but then a 55y full is not either.
I think if you took the above in wind and gave 10 shots at each, more would miss the 25ml in the wind than the full.
Mini kills need more skill in wind to hit for me as you dont have such a harder margin of error, ie 40 ml as apposed to 25.
Think the 15 ml are right out to 25 yards but in wind are something of a lottery and not a skill shot once past 20 yards?
Push full past 55y and again in woind it will become lottery shooting not skill.
Cherry toms are about 25 ml? If you hit them no probs at 90 yards than I cant see any Gp being a proiblem for you? Do you shoot GP?

Originally Posted by steg View Post
Funny that...I once heard Holly say he managed to hit a beef tomato at 35 yards once....
There was no wind that day

Originally Posted by Dale View Post
Well, pretty much the rest of the FT world outside the UK use them, so if this country wants to stay on top of the game get used to them.
If you're so good that you don't find them a challenge to shoot sitting then try shooting them kneeling or standing.
I would like to see 25 ml kneelers out to 30 yards (as a start)

Originally Posted by loopyloo View Post
So these targets are so boring not hard enough that someone like you has cleared the GP's so far
Nope didnt think so
A fair point but its been close.
I think gp 1 and 2 were reasonably tough. Wind (Am session) meant you had to shoot well to score well but plenty did? Gp 3 was a bit easier i thaught as the wind was fairly weak in comparrison to 1 & 2. But then its at times inmpossable to set a course for the wind.

Originally Posted by TOOL View Post
My opinion for what it's worth !
As for the mini kills , i think there a good mix in there now mini kills have been introduced don't forget that GP's are for everyone of all abilitys & grades and yet no one has cleared anything course wise as yet since this rule change ? , so far the wind has been favorable but again there's still misses on the face plates ? If the kits set up correctly then granted they are hitable.
The Euro's last year for example when it blew like a ******* ? now mini kills in that extremity of wind would have split the field wide open, the wind on the second day opened the leader board up anyway.
The use of mini kills abroad is purely based on the fact they don't have the wind / weather we have in the uk and yes they are trying to catch the big hitting British boys, like Mr Taylor , Calps , Ozzy, Gilly , Neil , James Woodhead , John Costello , Berty ,Doz, Connor etc etc etc etc ( sorry if i missed anyone)............ but there's nothing wrong with that ,hard competition is good it raises your game.
Extending GP's to 3 sessions ? not for me thanks, why 3 sessions anyway ?
And regarding is it easy ? No it's not in my opinion for what it's worth !
I am not sure about gp being for everyone? Thats not was I was told upon returning in 2006 and to be honest I am glad a Gp is "hard" as it has for me meant trying to raise my game. Its taking a few years but at last I have (nerarly) made AA grade. Asa C - A grade shooter my poor scores were not down to hard courses but my poor shooting. Competing against the best is the best way to improve?
I know some regions dont have a summer league and use the gp as their summer shoots, but thats alot of travelling and thus not for everyone?

Originally Posted by Jon View Post
I got p..ed off with them after 4 lanes on first GP and did hit them, just boring. 1 in every 4 shots 'has to be' less than 35 yards just on the small kill rule alone excluding any others slapped out.
If i want to shoot that range i would do at home but never have done or ever will do.
FT GP series has took a backwards this year with too many rules. What should have been done is scrap max distances on the type of shot to raise the game. This being done by course builders at their discretion making the most of the available ground! That s the enjoyment after all what do we do FT for?
Theres many countries using 6ft/lb rifles, hence the use of mini kills.
I dont have a problem with minis as such, now if they were at decent ranges to make what FT is about then yes.
Inch kill for me could do with going out to 40 yards. Perhaps only 25 % of the total number howerver to start with? As said, would also like to see at least two of the current 6 kneelers being 25 ml out to 30yards.
Also dont like the must have 8 x 25 ml kill rule. Would have voted for minimum 4, max 8. Some variety then for the various course builders.
While I am at it would like to see 6 stander so a balnce of numbers with kneelers.

Originally Posted by Willbe View Post
How about thinking about this differently? Instead of having a distance hang up why not look at the sizes of kill a-la american style targets (down to 3/8"-9mm)?

We use a 10 ml kill and an 8 ml one on our vermin side shoot. Quite alot of good ( AA) shooters miss them. I thnk 15ml is the smallest we need.

Originally Posted by Jcos View Post
Holly, your rite it should have always have stayed at 40mm kill zones. FT has been allowed to bow down to other countries whims and fancies after all it is a British sport and we started it . How far are you all prepared to let it go. I have from a reliable source heard that the Mongolian's will be entering an 8 man team in 2013 on horses. They think they can do do shots from horseback. They are training in now ,with the very latest kit.
Rob , re the above it would be nice to get home from the GPs on Monday,if all goes well not tuesday.
Heard Holly has baught an old Nag, bit like him really
I guess you have a point about we should be doing things here as We (uk) shooters want it done.
But you have the ability to put these thaughts to your regional reps and bring to Bfta meetings. Hopefully the system works and the majority of Gp shooters get courses they want to shoot? Be it a Uk style or perhaps more continental one?

Originally Posted by steg View Post
Holly I agree with you on a 40 shot course 'with bloody hard targets' and why not a TESTING side shoot of say 25 or 30 mini kills for those that enjoy shooting these.There would be enough time to do it (and the sillie's') as the main course time would be shorter.Or has this been tried in the past?
I put out a mainly full size kill course at Tondu in April and a vermin side shoot with the 15 ml & 25 kills plus partially obscured full kills.
Think it works well at regional level but again to me a full kill Gp course would be boaring and I dont think i would travel to shoot that if i can shoot it at my home ground.

Originally Posted by L-S-R View Post

Conor, not sure if you're being serious or yanking my string here but shall we say some of the "purists" may have something to say about this!
What i've been trying to say, and i'm sorry if i've not been making myself clear is we dont just have AA shooters or C shooters at a GP, we have a SPREAD of shooters. If you make a course either ridiculously easy or ridiculously hard then you are ignoring that basic fact. There has to be something for everyone, that its NOT a case of everyone getting a good score, but everyone getting a FAIR score i.e. generally appropriate to their grades. That way you meet everyones needs and keep everyone interested. FT is NOT served well as a sport by 2 or 3 disgruntled shooters complaining because courses are not what they think it should be, but by full entry lists of happy shooters enjoying a great day with like minded people, that is what success looks like and this is what the last 3 GPs have looked like to me. What I do not want to see is a sport in decline because of a few wanting to dicate to the many. Nothing wrong with people having ideas, but take them to the committee and get them discussed properly!
As for the business of minikills personally (and this is a personal veiw) i like them. They add a new dimension to courses and allow meaninful use of the 10-35 yard range of the course, where a 40mm kill may be a bit too easy. Also being smaller more care has to be taken with them, you have to be more discerning where you place the shot. They also stop courses becoming a boring one dimensional slog of 50+ yard targets which only test one part of the skill base.
Fair points. Think it will take the whole 9 gps to decide if the current set up of targets is right? Cant wait to see where Sywell pu all those mini kills lol

Originally Posted by rich View Post
Exactly the point. Smaller kills test a different part of the skills base. You don't need a 1000 scope to rangefind a 30 yarder accurately but if it's an inch kill and the wind is up you need more nerve and more skill and less luck.
Course design is about balance. I could put out a league course of 40 targets with four long standers (and here in SWEFTA we are allowed all of them at 45 yards with full size kills) and the rest of the targets at 25 yards, on the level, full size kill, no inchers, no minis. Most competitors are going to get all the 25 yarders, and someone might (not me though ) get all the standers for a clearance. But is that an attractive and enjoyable course, even though the worst shot walks off with 36 ex 40?
Good points Rich.

Originally Posted by Artfull-Bodger View Post
I'm not quite following what constitutes a "hard" target, unless we are talking 45-55yd standers and kneelers?
if you shoot a modern FT rifle sitting indoor with no wind you will hit a 55yd target every time unless you cock the shot up, so as far as I can see the only thing that makes a target "hard" is wind?
so as i'm no expert and a relative newbie in the sport I would think the mini kills add a little variety to constant 50yd plus shots?
lets be honest its hard to miss a 30yd full size (although it does happen)
Mike, if you take Wafta then a Hard target is a stander past 37 yards. Thats the target missed most at tondu in regional shoots.

Originally Posted by ANDREW GILLOTT View Post
Personally I just enjoy shooting tin chickens. Dont matter if their small kills or big kills, always try to knock it down, especially if I`ve seen Marc Fisher hit it before its my turn to waste some lead on it. Oh yea, and the really close one`s are good too because a certain `Oga` cant `remember` to dial back down and subsequently misses the next tin chicken which helps my financial plight in the long run.
Try and watch him him on the standers this weekend little fella, he is worse than you If I bring the camera this weekend on the tripod think it needs to go back on a stander lane
Agree on the close targets, its part of the Game trying to get shooters to make mistakes and mis dialing is one of them?
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