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Old 9th September 2015, 10:38 AM
Welsh Wizard's Avatar
Welsh Wizard Welsh Wizard is offline
A grade and staying there
Join Date: Jan 2015
Member of: Tondu. Harriers, Avon Hawks. Oaktree.
Location: Swansea
Posts: 1,013

Yippe I just found the multi quote button !

Originally Posted by Yorkshiretea View Post
OK let's get radical then, if only BFTA Organised shoots count to your "real" grade, let's have 18 shoots per year and split that into two seasons, grades are updated after 9 shoots and rolling count is 18.
Let's stop awarding 100% for actually not hitting 100%, all it does is falsely inflate the scores/grades of those below.
Let's get rid of Mean as an average and just derive the actual and factual % from the number of targets hit.
If you don't hand your card in, you are excluded from winning anything that season.
Let's publish all the data online and keep it online so everything is visible, I know some of the "elders" don't care for things being published or updated but it's news worthy and interesting if presented properly.

18 times round the country in a year, a non starter for about 95% of the shooters would be my guess.
Plus its hard enough finding enough clubs willing to host a Bfta shoot just for the summer. Not an option for me.
I never liked this 1005 for hiiting 29 targets, but how does the alternative work with different shoots in different conditions around the country?
always blows hard in Wales in the winter, but could be gentle nreeze elsewhere same day time.

The trouble with changing the system Martin is people under stand our system after many years of use, and as I keep saying they like it. Most don't think its broke so don't want it fixed.
I still believe, like kneelers and other subjects this is only being raised due to a hand full out of 600 active ft shooters?
Don't hand you card in, no prize?."I`ll hand our cards in Martin, opps I forgot to hand yours in."
Hard luck? Not an option for me.

Are you volunteering to host Martin? I have the time to do the Membership and grading officer bit, but not the ability to host the Excell spreadsheet on line. Way beyond me, I think!

Originally Posted by RobF View Post
As explained before it doesn't affect the grade because even a 20% drop on the day only drops your grade by 1%.
Also if outliers were removed then it would make no difference.
On one hand you say grades provide an incentive to improve and on the other hand you are willing to ignore grades which provide that incentive to improve.
Any system has to be fair and consistent. We all don't understand the inner workings of a computer yet we are happy to use them.

Your thinking of people with full rolling 20 though? Some one as I pointed out with my own "Bfta" grade of only 5 results, could drop from AA to A or as in the problem with Csfta from B to C in one shoot with a 70%, which does not look like a thrown score, just a bad day at the office. However you will still then have the complaints from the lower grades and we are back on the roundabout!

Allot of shooters, usually new shooters only have a few results and a good or poor result has a far more dramatic effect on the grade then, definitely much higher than 1%

Originally Posted by RobF View Post
No what you proved was that if a shooter goes out of their way to find a loophole it's possible but very obvious. If I decide to do a season of GPs where I shoot 10 targets then refuse to shoot the rest in a legal way then I will score 10. ( hopefully)
That also would have the same effect. It's a pointless exercise though. I could spend a whole season doing it though.

Using my bad day at the office, its not always obvious at all. Believe me Rob, over the last 4 yars I have highlighted (to myself) quite a few shooters that have done something similar. Some more often which does make you think they are throwing scores. However, there are many shooters I know well that just happen to shoot like this.
Its almost impossible to detect if a shooter is clever, the only shooting 10 targets is not a clever example.
My example (Bfta and wafta) was to highlight that it can be done undetected, I would be surprised if you thought shooter X was so obvious you would approach him or her?
partial shoot i would not enter.

Originally Posted by RobF View Post

The solution to that is all shoots count in the series. All 7 gps.

You can't arbitarily make 18 shoots. There are the national shoots and the others aren't.

But if you did make all shoots count in the gp series then you would have to hand your card in because all the trophies would be for the series or the day you attended. There'd be no need for grade % because you could use the position in the series. There'd be no need to publish 20 because youd be able to see the series. Make all the other shoots opens without grades (which many are). Leave the regions to their own series.

It solves a lot of issues.
Good grief, me and rob on the same track lol I have always liked this idea apart from it "May" turn into an attendance trophy?? I take it you meant no Class /Grades for C - AA? just a full "open" Gp series, apart from "Open Open," who would be in "Open"
could be worth a punt for a season??

Regions might however then require their own regional grading officer, as I suspect most regions would want to keep their Winter or summer leagues graded?

Originally Posted by Yorkshiretea View Post

Why not? BFTA Winter League, one shoot in each region for example. I'd do them all.
Visible data is great Rob, use it to further the sport and create talking points, make it look nice. I'm a big fan of grades, leagues and updates, I any many others at the bottom love this stuff. I know you and Bri are fans of Si updating the grades as we go but I love it.
And from the emails, personal thanks I get so are most others, as I say people like to see up to date info.
I still say Gp series can only ever be a half year thing, look at the calendar at the amount of shoots on in the winter, no room and more so money and time from family or work for most to squeeze any more in/ wipe the idea from your mind Martin, come do Wafta winter instead, that will cook you on a windy day lol

Originally Posted by RobF View Post
Ok, so there's a firm idea. All shoots to count.

What I could do with is a little bit of detail on what trophies are handed out, are there any on the day, or all just at the end of the series?
I've got no issue with visible data, as long as it's relevant and helpful. I know the philosophy behind pulling out a positive of a situation and grading can be an aid to that. It's just that when the actual purpose of grading is so widely misinterpreted it becomes very hard to change it with evidence that it would be for the better.
It all goes out the window if you agree that grade boundaries should reflect roughly equal fields (ie not 50 in C and 10 in B)...because the only way of doing that is either some real solid data that can make predictions, or retrospectively, but in either case the boundaries for the next year would be unknown in the current one. So while you may use it to shoulder rub with your fellow grade competitors currently (which the series scores do anyway), you'd have no idea if next year you'd be doing the same, even if the rolling 20 were published.

Sounds an idea, hard to ring if you don't know the number?

If it were an "open" series, I still say no trophies on the day, just a bigger half time Raffle for where all abilities can win.
End of season trophies, possibly handed out at the bfta Euro, given the Gp series usually finishes before this

[QUOTE=Yorkshiretea;209519]I've never really understood the dropping of shoots to start with, get rid of it, the field is equal then, no picking your shoots for an advantage.

I think the dropping scores accounts for family / Holidays or just a plain equipment fail, the idea being the best shooter wins, not the one who turned up most?

Originally Posted by RobF View Post
What I was alluding to is that you won't know where the grade boundaries are to be, until all the grades are in. Hopefully that makes some sense... ie if we're to make grades fairer and more consistently spread, then we need to see where those grades distribute first.
the flaw is, that if you drive for two targets (instead of the remainder remaining on the course... ) then if someone comes along and score's higher, that could be 3 or 4. Or if they crash, you may not need anymore. Would that change on how you approach a course yes/no?

Quite so, he needs to talk to Gilly, its every target, not 2.

Is there a post code for this?
BFTA Grading Question to

Updated Bfta % by region and grade,44.0.html

[B] [SIZE="3"]Photos on BFTA Fbook page, tall and short !!
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