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Scott in CO
15th March 2010, 07:24 PM
My eyes aren't so good anymore and dark cloudy glass really bugs me. I've been looking for a scope with better glass than my 4200's and my big Nikko. I didn't want to spend a ridiculous amount of money on something like the S&B. Next logical step up seems to be the Luepold comp scopes, but I don't like being stuck with the fixed power. -I like to have options! I decided to give this new Sightron a try after reading on the 6mm BR forums how much those guys like the sightron glass.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_1397.JPG

I went for the 1/8 moa target dot reticle and mounted it on my .20 GP -I'm thinking Benchrest shooting here... It is a BIG and heavy scope. Feels just about like the Big Nikko in terms of weight and size... First impression is that the glass is VERY bright and clear. First look through had me smiling...

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_13882.JPG

I tried my best to do an un-biased side-by-side comparison of this scope to some of the others I have here on hand. I printed up a "scope comparison chart" that I found somewhere online and put it out at 45yds. All testing done a high noon in perfect blue skies, although the target sheet was in the shade under a tree. I simple looked through all my scopes and tried to determine which one allowed me to see the most detail. I compared the new Sightron to my Bushnell 8-32 4200, my 6.5-20 leupold EFR, a 14.5-35x premier boosted leupold EFR, and an older version Big Nikko 10-50x60 (black turrests -NOT the newer green ones)...

This is the chart I used:

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_1395.JPG

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_13961.JPG

Starting from the low end of magnification, I pointed a bunch of scopes towards the chart 45yds away:

I set my leupold EFR at 20x and was able to read print as small as line 14 on the comaprison chart. Set the Sightron to 20x and was able to clearly read line #12. -The EFR got its but kicked by Sightron...

Bushnell 4200 at 32x let me read line # 11, and the Sightron set at 32x let me read #9 -The 4200 got its but kicked by Sightron...

My premier boosted leupold set at 35x let me read line # 9, and the sightron at 35x also let me read #9. The 1" tube of the premier boosted leupold did really well against the massive 60mm front objective and the 30mm tube of the sightron. At 35x both scopes were even at line #9...


My big Nikko set at 35x let me read line # 10, and the the sightron was good for #9

My big Nikko set a 50x let me read line #9 and the Sightron at 50x also let me read line #9. The sightron is considerably brighter than my Nikko up at 50x, but the eye relief seemed a bit more criticle with the sightron. I was surprised to find that I could make out find details equally well with both scopes up at 50x. My Nikko definietly goes a bit dark and cloudy at 50x. The sightron shows me a slight bit of white-ish haze at 50x, but stays quite bright.
Because the Nikko goes so dark and cloudy at 50x I use 35x most of the time. The Nikko image really improves by dropping to 35x IMO, and the sightron is beautiful at 35x -crystal clear and bright. It was interesting that after dropping the sightron from 50x to 35 I could still make out line 9 on the chart. When the Nikko dropped from 50x to 35x, the chart reading ability went from line 9 to line 10...

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_1392.JPG

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_13891.JPG

This scope does 10yds at a full 50x no problem. The image seemed to snap in and out just as well if not better than my Nikko. Put a big side-wheel on this scope and I expect it'll be an excellent range-finder... Targets turretts are a nice size, but the clicks are real fine/quiet/sensitive. I prefer more solid feeling audible clicks like the leupolds. They do offer a sun-shade for $49 and sightron lens covers will soon be inlcuded with the scope. Sightron says they'll be sending me covers, (free of charge)as soon as they get teh shipment. The two current reticle choices (target dot and fine CH) might not make for the best FT scope, but at $845 USD this scope is worth a look if you're condsidering a Big Nikko or a Leupold Comp scope. I'm VERY happy with mine for my Bench Rest Airgun...

Regards,

Scott in CO

RobF
15th March 2010, 07:32 PM
Cheers for the report! :)

Looks like there could be another contender out there. I wonder what the prices will be like in the UK...

Can you see if it comes down to 8yds on 50x? That will be of interest to FT shooters here.

CoolId
15th March 2010, 08:07 PM
£960 from Aim Field Sports when stock becomes available. Not sure about accessories. Had a look at one at Newark and was mighty impressed, but we need an FT'er to give it a real test

Regards

Dave

JamesO
15th March 2010, 09:08 PM
Thanks for the review, an interesting read and good to see another option out there for shooters.

James

Scott in CO
15th March 2010, 10:13 PM
I just got out the measuring tape and my laser range-finder...

***CORRECTION*** -the best my scope will do at maximum magnification of 50x is 11yds... Sorry for the incorrect information posted previously. I was sure I was on a 10yd target... Turns out it was actually 11yds... So 8yds is out of the question. I tried 8 yds at 10x and it was still blurry... Sorry...

regards,

Scott in CO

RobF
16th March 2010, 08:13 AM
No problem Scott, but thanks for checking!

azzi_b
16th March 2010, 08:43 PM
Are the reference charts available in a downloadable format ?
would like to test nikko against schmidt

Scott in CO
16th March 2010, 10:25 PM
Are the reference charts available in a downloadable format ?
would like to test nikko against schmidt

I found the targets online, but I'm afraid I can't remember where. Send me an email: (scottdecapio"AT"yahoo.com) and I'll be happy to send a jpg. to you or anyone else who would like one...

I would LOVE to hear the results if you're able to test the Nikko against the S&B...

regards,

Scott in CO

RobF
16th March 2010, 10:34 PM
found this if you're interested...

Jon
26th March 2010, 09:49 PM
A few chaps in SA have got them so looking forward to honest opinions.
Glass is supposedly brighter than a Comp Series, so thats going some.

suidos
21st April 2010, 01:50 PM
Hi to all,

I have a Big nikko Mk2 into a HW97K V-match 12 fpe this works fine but I want changed it because the nikko is for a middle recoil. I like a mil-dot shot o dont use clicks and I looking for a 32x mildot scope for a spring gun. Do you know if this or the series III ss are spring gun rated?

Thanks!

Is for FT!

Sparky
20th May 2010, 12:44 PM
Got one here and although i know jackshit about FT scopes:D its looks very impressive, if this is anything to go by then really looking forward in seeing the 10x42:cool:

Pete

DaveTV
20th May 2010, 02:44 PM
Its like an EB with the Hawke half mil ret, that what the glass seemed like when i had a short glance through it at the Shooting Show, but it was indoor and that is deceiving, made the Nightforce and Khales i looked though seem about as good as Hawkes

Sparky
20th May 2010, 03:20 PM
Yes it does look as if it could be a good scope, with the rear pa to could be a winner

Pete

Andy006
20th May 2010, 04:03 PM
This does look the bees knees Pete. I nearly purchased a Sightron 3-9x36 a few years ago. They do seem very well liked in the States.

Look at this: http://www.sightron.com/index.php?action=view_document&did=1201816362&cat_id=6&id=151

ps, this scope is available from Optics Planet in the USA and is £400 quid delivered to the UK. I am sooooooo tempted to treat myself.

Sparky
20th May 2010, 05:51 PM
This does look the bees knees Pete. I nearly purchased a Sightron 3-9x36 a few years ago. They do seem very well liked in the States.

Look at this: http://www.sightron.com/index.php?action=view_document&did=1201816362&cat_id=6&id=151

ps, this scope is available from Optics Planet in the USA and is £400 quid delivered to the UK. I am sooooooo tempted to treat myself.

I'd hang on Andy as the ones that are out are not true mildot hence the delay in the UK.

Regarding the FT scope, Steve Lanyman has said anyone who wants to look at one is welcome to do so at Sywell on Sunday

Pete

poison dwarf
23rd May 2010, 05:40 AM
Got a look through this scope yesterday at bisley. the best way to describe it is "absolutley stunning"
I can see there being a big demand for this scope.
btw if you don't know steve he will probably be wearing his new Sightron hat at Sywell :)

RobF
23rd May 2010, 07:58 PM
had a peek through Steve's today. Only off a bag, but the rangefinding was consistent even with no wheel on. It also was consistent on lower mags... I did detect a little shift in the range compared to the higher mag, but having a peek at a bush off a beanbag is not a true test by any means. Optically, 40 is tighter than 50, but 50 still resolved well and the picture was quite bright on 50.

Scope seemed very light in weight.

Controls all seem nice, and the target dot is like a falcon or BSA, i think it's thicker than a leup comp's. Field of vew was narrower than expected. Will be interesting to see it on a rifle :)

sportsmatch
6th June 2010, 07:14 PM
Just had a look on the sightron site they now due a mil-dot version of the 10-50 mag
Any reports off current users of this scope had a look through Steves looked good off a bag at 55 and 45 the only 2 targets out at quarry at the time was repeatable on the little wheel that had a target dot reticule

Gary

Jon
7th June 2010, 09:30 PM
Theres three being used in SA, one a member on here and importer who talked them in to doing that type of ret.
Personally think its a big no, too cluttered if a true 50 mag you will get at least three windage dots within a 40mm kill at 50 yards - rather pointless.

target
8th June 2010, 04:09 PM
There is a full reivew in this months issue of Target Shooter Magazine about the new Sightron 10x50X60 by Vince Bottomley, I did get a chance to see one when was at the Newark show the other month , great peice of kit.

www.targetshooter.co.uk

sportsmatch
8th June 2010, 04:47 PM
Theres three being used in SA, one a member on here and importer who talked them in to doing that type of ret.
Personally think its a big no, too cluttered if a true 50 mag you will get at least three windage dots within a 40mm kill at 50 yards - rather pointless.

Hi Jon

How do you work out that it would be 3 mil-dots at 50 mag
is it ffp or sfp would be shooting on 20 or 15

more interested in it not moving with temp after the experience with the **** bender

looking for a new scope so either sightron at 29 oz or big nikko at 37 oz plus the sunshadesand wheel
have looked through Steves on here I thought from a quick look very good, so I am looking for more info before choosing

Target I have read that article but bench rest shooting and FT is totally a different aspect good article

Gary

target
9th June 2010, 01:55 PM
Hi Gary,
I used to have a Nikko but had so many problems with them but the optics on the Sigthron are great for what ever you are using them for, I know the article was done on the mil-dot but the Sightron is really worth a look and they do come with a lifetime guarantee and you get an new one without quibble.

Target

sportsmatch
9th June 2010, 02:56 PM
Target

One good thing is I,m in no rush and I was lucky in that I still have the 20/50 leupold on my dommie

I am looking for a new scope to go the steyr now that I have had my money back on the schmidt and looking to replace with a new big nikko or maybe a sightron

Gary

berty177
9th June 2010, 10:07 PM
Target

One good thing is I,m in no rush and I was lucky in that I still have the 20/50 leupold on my dommie

I am looking for a new scope to go the steyr now that I have had my money back on the schmidt and looking to replace with a new big nikko or maybe a sightron

Gary

Weeman,

I do know for a beautiful Zeiler 8-32x44 going if your interested. Not sure if the seller would give you your money back though if you werent happy with it.

Just a thought for you thats all???

Berty

sportsmatch
10th June 2010, 03:59 AM
cheers Berty but all the plants in the garden have supports :D

Gary

berty177
10th June 2010, 07:50 PM
cheers Berty but all the plants in the garden have supports :D

Gary

Has to be said Gary........ I like your style haaahaa....


Berty

Jon
16th June 2010, 08:55 AM
I do know for a beautiful Zeiler 8-32x44

Ive got one of them knocking around somewhere.

True 50 mag with mildot is pointless, i never used it just the main crosshair aiming off and judging wind, back to the ole Tasco days.
Gary 2nd focal plane on a tad over 50 mag, of course drop mag down will widen the gaps.
1st focal plane equates to a full size kill at 44 yards, i have the pdf off the late **** Thomas. I do use the dots for aiming off.

sportsmatch
16th June 2010, 09:05 AM
Hi Jon
have email sightron to see if the scope is ffp or sfp and to see if the px can easily drop to 8 yds
I am waiting to see How Steve is getting on with his sightron


Gary

Scott in CO
17th June 2010, 01:37 AM
Target


I am looking for a new scope to go the steyr now that I have had my money back on the schmidt and looking to replace with a new big nikko or maybe a sightron

Gary


Hello sportsmatch,

What was the problem with your S&B? POI shift with temps? Or rangefinding shifts with temps? Bad enough that you got rid of the scope, eh? VERY curious about your experience as I've just ordered the S&B this morning!:eek:

regards,

Scott in CO

sportsmatch
17th June 2010, 07:11 AM
The rangfinding gets shorter has the temp rises :mad: results here http://www.airgunbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=464578
I,m not the only one to find this, you may want to rethink your order untill the fix the problem
all others aspects are fine the clicks the sidewheel loved the ffp reticule suffered abit of whiteout if the sun was in front alot more than my leupold pr vx3 20/50
Gary

Scott in CO
17th June 2010, 03:09 PM
Thanks very much for the info Gary! That entire thread on the BBS was a very interesting read. I shoot FT with the big Nikko, and I've seen the same kind of results with temperature change. Luckily my scope was set-up during temps equal to our mid-day match temps over here. I remember being quite alarmed at an early morning (cooler temp) site-in session, but the scope came back to 'spot-on' by time the match started. I know many of the top competitors here in the US use those thermometer strips on their leupold comps to battle the very same issue. I've also noticed the same with my premier boosted Leupold EFR

It appears that its fairly safe to say this happens to all scopes, -would you agree? Even RobF admits his March is doing it. Are you saying the problem is particularly worse with the S&B than other scopes? Would have been nice if S&B had cracked the problem, but if the temp shifts are no worse than my Nikko and my Leupod, it may be worth keeping the S&B simply for the bonus of the lens quality... But I don't know what I'm talking about just yet. Should have my first look through the S&B in another day or so... We'll see...

Thanks again for your input...

Scott in CO

sportsmatch
17th June 2010, 04:21 PM
well after the testing to make sure of a few shots that I,d seen in comps it become clear the scope shifting was to blame
at newbury the sunday morning was cold and seen 4 shots strike high in the first few lanes the sun had already came out but took a little while to warm so the remaining 60% of the course was ok but the demage was early on
on the question of optics a lad down here who is testing the falcon scopes looked through my schmidt and my PR VX3 20/50 leupold and remarked the leup was brighter

scopes do alter with temp but the schmidt takes the biscuit :mad:

from the results of the test it was not just done once but several times and for 18 degrees it altered 7.5 yds:eek: the leupold 1 and like I said the was beening generous to the schmidt I alter the summer to winter marks which is about 1/4" on the wheel at 55 yds this done at aboput 4 degrees if I remember if not I use a different part of the pointer

Gary

would I keep the schmidt, not bloody likely untill they sort the problem I would CANCEL THE ORDER

Apart from that, how is the sightron I have seen on there web site they now do a mil-dot ret

Scott in CO
17th June 2010, 09:55 PM
would I keep the schmidt, not bloody likely untill they sort the problem I would CANCEL THE ORDER

Apart from that, how is the sightron I have seen on there web site they now do a mil-dot ret

Oh boy... To be honest, not exactly what I was hoping to hear. The truth hurts sometimes!:o My S&B should currently be shipping as I type this. I believe its a lot easier to return a scope if its not been mounted. Now I've got to figure out a way to put it through a thorough test BEFORE actually mounting it on a rifle. I might try some hot/cold range-finding experiments with the scope rested on a sand-bag before I actually mount it. A 7.5yd shift is definitely not acceptable....

About the sightron -no solid news to report as I've been having nothing but troubles with the Daystate Grand Prix the sightron is mounted on. The latest is that the gun shows me a POI shift as I make my way through a fill. Velocity remains constant but looks like on-board air pressure/shifting valve dwell time is affecting my POI as I make my way through a fill. A 220 bar shot is consistently showing me a POI 1/2" higher than a 180bar shot of the exact same velocity. My GP is FAC so that really complicates things. My shot count is already quite low and I'm not too thrilled with the the idea of reducing it even more to stay in the "sweet spot" -a concept these guns were designed to eliminate in the first place!But there's really not even a sweet spot, its more like a gradual drop in POI as the air pressure drops -just like a non-regulated gun... Much frustration... OK, finished venting now! There was a point where I was getting close to blaming the scope, but I've defnitely ruled that out now... I really need a big side-wheel for the sightron before I can do any significant range-finding tests anyway...

regards,

Scott in CO

Conor
17th June 2010, 10:11 PM
Is there a barrel band on the gun which is attached to the cylinder? If so it could be moving with the different pressure inside your cylinder, that or the cylinder is toughing the stock. If it's not any of these then you need an electro wizz kid:o

Scott in CO
17th June 2010, 10:40 PM
Is there a barrel band on the gun which is attached to the cylinder? If so it could be moving with the different pressure inside your cylinder, that or the cylinder is toughing the stock. If it's not any of these then you need an electro wizz kid:o

Thanks for your interest and your suggestions. My GP woes are a long story. The gun has already been back to the UK once because the barrel was making contact with the air cylinder (there is no barrel band). 5 months later I got my gun back with some nice little brass shims installed to "free float" and raise the breech and barrel up off the air cylinder. Next the onboard chrono started to give me 2 or 3 bad readings per fill -which was enough to send the MVT programming into total chaos -resulting velocity jumps as much as 200fps :eek: ... Constant cleaning of the sensor did not resolve the issue, and I've since given up on the MVT mode, and have been shooting exclusively in MCT mode to eliminate the onboard chrono from the system, and now I see I've still got some issues....:mad: My only other thought is to try bedding the action in the stock. A friend of mine says it improved the accuracy of his GP...A roll of the dice for my gun perhaps? Do you think the electronics could still be the source of my problems? Any theories on that?

regards,

Scott in CO

sportsmatch
18th June 2010, 05:40 AM
Mine was on the rifle for 3 months till the temp rose and I seen the problems the finish did not show that it had be on a rifle I would put a cloth or something soft just to try on the rifle as it's really hard to range off a bag

Gary

Scott in CO
19th June 2010, 12:59 AM
Got the S&B today. Would you believe my luck, S&B USA sent me the wrong model!...:eek: Today I received the PMII 12.5-50 with the 34mm tube... Definitely NOT the FT model I ordered....:(

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m183/scottdecapio/IMG_1426.jpg

No chance of me being tempted to mount this one up -not even an option with the odd sized 34mm tube. I still did have a look-see with the scope simply rested on a sand-bag. I compared it to my sightron and my big Nikko. S&B clearly has the superior glass -with the sightron following close behind (very respectable considering the HUGE price difference), and the Nikko showing me the least clarity of the three. I had an interesting experience today while peering through the three scopes at my 45yd target. With the Nikko I could see some sort of insect buzzing around the target. I switched to the Sightron and could make out a bit more detail -made me think it was probably a house fly. Then I switched to the S&B -even with it wobbling around on a sand-bag rather than being properly mounted, it showed me the insect was clearly a bee. With the S&B I could detect the black and yellow stripes on the bee's abdomen -a detail the other two scopes wouldn't let me see (all scopes at 50X). While the Sightron and the Nikko image quality deteriorates slighty as you reach 50x, the S&B stayed pretty much flawless from 12 all the way to 50x. I was also struck by how much wider the field of view was on the S&B -but of course this is the model with the 34mm tube...

It was also interesting to play with the S&B "lighthouse" turrets on this model. The top of the turret has an indicator that shows "1" for the first rotation of the elevation knob, and it swithces to "2" as soon as you hit the second rotation. It does this for 4 complete rotations -and should keep anyone from getting lost as they spin the turret. Pretty cool feature, IMO...

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m183/scottdecapio/IMG_1429.jpg

Looks like I'll have this scope to fiddle with until Monday, then I ship this one back and decide if I should give up, or try again to see if somebody will ship me the scope I ordered.... If anyone has any questions about this particular S&B model, I'll be happy to do my best over the next couple days...

Regards,

Scott in CO

Conor
19th June 2010, 07:59 AM
A roll of the dice for my gun perhaps? Do you think the electronics could still be the source of my problems?

regards,

Scott in CO

Scott, me and electronics don't get on and I have little faith in them inside a gun but that is another long story. Hope you get it sorted, and by all reports the PM2 is a better scope than the Ft model!

RobF
19th June 2010, 08:49 AM
Scott, Field of View is a property of the lenses, not the the tube. The 34mm tube just allows for more elevation and windage. Some scopes need more elevation than 34mm can provide, and now there's 40mm tubes, as well as external adjustment which adjust the whole tube from the outside (external has been around for a long time).

The focal length of the objective is the key, but I've never seen any stated figures. It's reputed to be about 1000mm but considering the difference in behaviour between scopes of roughly the same spec, I would suspect that it varies somewhat.

How close does she focus? Would be interesting to see that and what the gaps are between 50-55.

Many people i know that have looked through a PMII and the FT say the PMII has better optics, but the 50x is a new version.

Scott in CO
19th June 2010, 09:05 PM
How close does she focus? Would be interesting to see that and what the gaps are between 50-55.

Many people i know that have looked through a PMII and the FT say the PMII has better optics, but the 50x is a new version.

RobF,

Thank you for sharing the info in regards to the science of Field of View. I've been learing a lot from this forum lately. This PMII scope is advertised as 10m to infinity. At 50x I can get a clear picture at 11yds. 30x looks good at 10.5yds, and if I turn it all the way down to 12.5x, 10yds looks pretty good -but still slightly blurry... I'm afraid I can't help much with the gaps between 50 and 55yds with the small sidewheel mounted on this scope. For what its worth, 15 and 30yds matched up perfectly with the markings on the wheel, and the sight picture seemed to snap in and out just as nicely as any other scope I've seen....

Boy, you guys are full of bad news for me aren't you!:p I'm getting a solid concensus that the FT model is not as good as this PMII model.. Bummer... More painful truth;)... So I take it that's 3 votes for me to ditch the S&B? (RobF, L-S-R, and sportsmatch)? Time to look at the March? I have looked long and hard at those... The greater FOV of the S&B was a big plus, IMO... Silly details like the need to grind the ribs off the March side-wheel truned me off as well... The reports that S&B is the king when it comes to low light conditions also pulled me strongly towrds the S&B... But the 70M maximum of the S&B is a negative, as well as the reports of terrible temp sensitivity (news to me)....
I stilll have another day and a half to make a decision before I deal with the S&B people on Monday morning...

Regards,

Scott in CO

Delphinus
20th June 2010, 12:27 AM
RobF,

.. The greater FOV of the S&B was a big plus, IMO... Silly details like the need to grind the ribs off the March side-wheel truned me off as well... The reports that S&B is the king when it comes to low light conditions also pulled me strongly towrds the S&B... But the 70M maximum of the S&B is a negative, as well as the reports of terrible temp sensitivity (news to me)....

Why do you prefer a greater FOV? A small FOV give a better range finding.
I choose March over S&B because of its weight and knowing that less glass and size will make it less temperature sensitive, the only problem for me is that the MTR1 reticule is too thin to range precisely.

Scott in CO
20th June 2010, 01:49 AM
Why do you prefer a greater FOV? A small FOV give a better range finding.
I choose March over S&B because of its weight and knowing that less glass and size will make it less temperature sensitive, the only problem for me is that the MTR1 reticule is too thin to range precisely.

I wasn't aware that a smaller FOV leads to better range finding. Can you explain how that works? The larger FOV is just a personal preference thing for me. Makes it easier to find your targets, and just makes for a more pleaseant 'user-friendly' shooting eperieince, IMO...-AND becuase I didn't know that a tighter FOV means better range finding!:o I don't worry about weight at all. I feel that the heavier a gun is, the more stable it is... until you've got to shoot standing of course!:p Your thought about a smaller lighter scope being less likely to be temp sensitive is also something I have not considered. Less surface area for the sun to beat down on and heat up? Is that what you're thinking? I feel like I may not be understanding your reasoning... (?)

So other than the MRT1 reticle, are you quite happy with the March? Which model do you choose, and how has it been treating you otherwise? Have you had a look through the S&B in comparison to your March?

Regards,

Scott in CO

Delphinus
20th June 2010, 10:17 AM
I wasn't aware that a smaller FOV leads to better range finding. Can you explain how that works? The larger FOV is just a personal preference thing for me. Makes it easier to find your targets, and just makes for a more pleaseant 'user-friendly' shooting eperieince, IMO...-AND becuase I didn't know that a tighter FOV means better range finding!:o I don't worry about weight at all. I feel that the heavier a gun is, the more stable it is... until you've got to shoot standing of course!:p Your thought about a smaller lighter scope being less likely to be temp sensitive is also something I have not considered. Less surface area for the sun to beat down on and heat up? Is that what you're thinking? I feel like I may not be understanding your reasoning... (?)

So other than the MRT1 reticle, are you quite happy with the March? Which model do you choose, and how has it been treating you otherwise? Have you had a look through the S&B in comparison to your March?

Regards,

Scott in CO

Sorry i confused FOV with Deep of Field (DOV), and yes bigger Field of view is better to find the targets but 60X is better to range find ;)

I agree with you a heavier gun is more stable but is better to have the weight in a lower point of gravity not in top if the gun, but for a strange reason with the March my standers got worst like happen to RobF, probably both our guns changed the balance point.

My point was less weight less metal and glass to expand but the silver finish of the S&B is a good thing.
Iím very happy with the MRT1 reticle Iím not happy with my eyes I have a D60V52TM that is the equivalent of the scope that you received but I had mine parallaxed to 10 yards and they do it to 8 yards (7.3mt)

Iím quite happy with it but I discover a problem that itís very serious but I need to test my scope more and if possible compare it with another March.

I never looked through the S&B, I took a long time before decide for the March over the S&B, since I didnít like Jim Kelbly way of doing business, the warranty of March, etc but Iím happy to choose for 60X over 50X

Scott in CO
24th June 2010, 02:23 AM
They sent me another S&B today. This time I got the correct model, but NOT the correct reticle. I was VERY specific while ordering the 2nd focal plane reticle. What do they send? 1st focal plane reticle of corse!:mad: If you are ever going to buy the S&B FT scope, DO NOT look through the PMII version first! You will then be disappointed with the FT model.-Just like you guys told me;). The dealer told me that the PMII gets the highest quality glass because its so important for long range shooting. I guess they think a scope that only does 70m for us airgunners doesn't need the best glass.:( I thought I was spending a rediculous amount of money becuase I was getting the best glass money could buy. Not cool to learn the FT model gets the 2nd best glass S&B has to offer...:mad: Also interesting to see was that both the PMII and the FT model shift focus when you change magnification. Focus at 50x, turn it down to 30x, and you'll then have to re-adjust the parallax again for a clear sight picture. My Nikko and the Sightron DO NOT have this problem. Not too impressed with the S&B... I couldn't mount it and test the range-finding because its going back to the dealer tomorrow. I think I've had enough of S&B and I'll be asking for a full refund tomorrow.

Maybe my trusty Nikko is just fne after all... I think as far as optical quality goes, the Sightron is the best deal going right now. The S&B FT glass is still slightly better than the sightron, but not good enough to justify the price of the S&B, IMO. Hopefully we'll soon hear about repeatability, range-finding, and temp sensitivity on the Sightron from one of you serious FT shooters soon... Hopefully someone will soon offera large sidewheel and elevation knobs for the sightron. Now that they offer the mil-dot reticle, there's a very good chance the sightron will be a winner... If good reports on the sightron keep coming in, I may try the mil-dot version on my FT gun....

regards,

Scott in CO

sportsmatch
24th June 2010, 08:38 AM
the FT model shift focus when you change magnification. Focus at 50x, turn it down to 30x, and you'll then have to re-adjust the parallax again for a clear sight picture.

regards,

Scott in CO

Yes I have heard that on 1 scope in the uk also. Mine was perfect in that sense the onlyproblem was the range changing with temp

Gary

Delphinus
24th June 2010, 08:48 AM
Also interesting to see was that both the PMII and the FT model shift focus when you change magnification. Focus at 50x, turn it down to 30x, and you'll then have to re-adjust the parallax again for a clear sight picture. My Nikko and the Sightron DO NOT have this problem.
Scott in CO

My March does the same and I suppose all scopes have the same behavior in some degree.

Because of a superior resolution and magnification of those scopes it is more perceptible.

Put the scope in 50x and reduce magnification to 10x and check if the POI changes slightly.

sportsmatch
24th June 2010, 09:54 AM
My March does the same and I suppose all scopes have the same behavior in some degree.
.

No they don,t I can also shoot the leupold on any mag and its fine
I Did see that trait on a deben that I had to teak the sidewheeel after range the turning the mag down to shot impacts where ok on different setting

Gary

Jon
24th June 2010, 11:17 AM
Done the first one directly after the Shot Show Germany, lives in SA.
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL15/728921/1243489/384848004.jpg
Thats six i know of now 1 in US, 1 UK and 4 in SA.

My zero used to shift on a BSA and a hand picked Niko i had when altering the mag. Known a few scopes alter zero by altering the focus.

sportsmatch
24th June 2010, 11:37 AM
Nice wheel
looking to get a big nikko for a spare steyr so will be looking for a new wheel :)

Gary

Globalstar66
25th June 2010, 05:50 PM
Hello Guys

Robbie here from South Africa.

I've been reading this from front to back, and would now like to add my views.

I own THREE S&B FT scopes. Bought and received the 1st on in June 2009 (a production model), non IR 2nd FP FT ret. Bought the second one in November 2009 in 2nd FP but with IR, and FT reticle again. Then bought 3rd one in February 2010 in 1st FP with IR and the FT DOT reticle which Tim Finley helped design...horrible ret in my opinion.

Well, seeing as I've been using the S&B permanently for just over a year now, this is what I've found.

My scope's rangefinding does change with temperature changes, but it changes a LOT with differing light conditions. I have mis-ranged targets by as much as 8 meters at 50 meters. We had a shoot at Mutango last year in August (the range where the Worlds were held in SA last year), and shot with the captain of the SA team. One particular target, I ranged at 42 meters, and MISSED. Piet Breedt ranged it 50m with his Nikko, and it fell. Afterwards, we measured the distance with a tape, and it was indeed 50m not 42.

Also, I would set up the sidewheel on a Saturday around mid-day in bright sunlight, and mark the sidewheel distances with a marker. If I go back the next day, and it's a LITTLE cloudy (not bad weather, just more clouds then the day before), then none of my markings on my sidewheel would correspond - and I use a tape measure everytime, so all actual distances are exactly the same. I would then range the 50m target at 52 to 55 meters, although the target is only 50m away.

Worst still - during a shoot, if the weather or clouds change, so does the rangefinding.

When the shoot starts, there would be no clouds with very bright sunlight. 1 hour later, the clouds would start building, and every now and then the sun would disappear behind the clouds for short spells, and my rangefinding would be all over the place...

I spoke to Christian Krug at the IWA show in Germany in March about my findings. He called Dr Christoph vom Hagen (he's one of the FT scope's engineers) to come and talk to me. I spent an hour talking to him about all of this, and he told me that they were actually aware of this, and were in the process of finding a solution to the "problem", and were investigating whether to change some internal parts in the scope.

He told me that they were working closely with Barry MacDonald in the UK (Kilty I think) and with Andras (from Hungary). I was quite excited when he told me this, but my excitement lasted only for a short period of time.

I have been sending S&B an e-mail almost every week for the past 2 months, and get NO replies. I have e-mailed Christian Krug (he's in the sales department) directly, and he would respond that Management was getting my e-mails and so was Dr vom Hagen, but they had no news for me, and that was why they were not responding to my queries.

I am sitting with THREE of these damned FT scopes, and I am missing shots like crazy, because of very inconsistent rangefinding.

I have sold a few of the Sightron SIII 10-50x60 scopes locally, and bought one for myself (the Target Dot ret), and was VERY happy with the optics and rangefinding ability of the Sightron.

As I was used to Mildot ret for aiming off in crosswinds, I wanted a MD ret in the Sightron, so I started speaking to Alan Orr of Sightron early in this year, asking for a MD reticle. He didn't want to "budge" at first...The at IWA in Germany, I went to go talk to him in person, again asking for a MD reticle. I also spoke to the 2 Japanese Engineers he had at his booth at IWA, and they said it could be done with not too much hassles, and I pointed Alan to the discussion I had with the 2 Japanese guys. Again, Alan said he would think about it.

After coming back from IWA, I literally e-mailed Alan twice a week asking (pleading actually) for a mildot ret.

In April, I sent Alan a sketch with a ret we thought would work well without Sightron having to spend big money on R&D on a mildot ret for the 10-50x60.

About 5 or 6 weeks ago, after about my 20th e-mail to Alan, he gave in.:) He decided to do a real Mildot reticle for the 10-50x60, and rather than do it only for me (on 10 units), decided to do it as a full production model, hence the "birth" of the mildot reticle for the Sightron SIII 10-50x60.

There's only one hiccup still - he's now had the sunshades made for it, but the sidewheel is still not in production, although it is planned and being worked on. The sidewheels might take a few more months before coming to market.

Well, that's my LOOOONG story about the S&B and the Sightrons.

I hope it sheds a little more light on the issues...

Cheers

Robbie

JSantos
11th August 2010, 02:01 PM
And how about the rangefinding between 40 and 50 mts?

JasonGoldsmith66
11th August 2010, 05:28 PM
Robbie,

I like your style of persistence...my cup of tea the way you go about it and your story telling ! :D

...something similar happened with Feinwerkbau & Walther - as I grovelled & praised them to get several alu plaquettes for free, for my future JM laminate stocks (though Guido has mentioned JM is retiring :eek: ? fact or rumour ? )

Well, at least we all know who to thank for the Mil Dot SIII as a S&B replacement :D

Would be interested to read a future write up of the Falcon T50, Vs. Big Nikko, Vs. SIII , shoot up...should you have the time :D

ATB :cool:

Globalstar66
12th August 2010, 09:06 PM
Jason, no worries at all.

As soon as I get my hands on the Falcon, I will be doing exactly that. :)

Cheers

Robbie

PS: BTW - the Sightron is awesome between 40 and 50 meters as well.

kilty
13th August 2010, 07:45 PM
He told me that they were working closely with Barry McDonald in the UK (Kilty I think) and with Andras (from Hungary). I was quite excited when he told me this, but my excitement lasted only for a short period of time.

Hi Robbie, Barry McDonald.....aka kilty.
I, like you and lots of other FT shooters, have become frustrated with the S&B FT scope.
We kept Craig's one as it was far superior to mine. The problem was that this is the one that most shooters saw and tried before the production models were available, and then bought.
I still think that it is the best range-finding scope we have had but it does move in temperature / light conditions. Personally I think it is temperature shift. Mine would move by 7 yards whilst Craig's would only move about 1 to 2 yards.
The guys at S&B are fantastic. Problem I think is they are not allowed to spend anymore on a small market product.
With hindsight they are probably wishing they had left the FT scene alone.
My scope is sat on Christophe's desk since mid February this year. I thought that they would have had a part made by now to correct the problem.
The recent mail from another Doctor giving out the Company's position was attrocious. I would say typically German arrogance but these guys have become "friends" over the years.
What will the future hold? We are definitely NOT taking S&B to the Worlds in Hungary!
If they gave me a parallax fix we would ALL use S&B FT.
cheers
Barry (and Craig for his input)

JasonGoldsmith66
14th August 2010, 02:07 PM
My 2 pennies on UK pricing.

Sightron SIII 'LRTD" or Mil Dot:

- In the UK, the 10-50 X 60 is GBP960 / USD$1500
(http://www.aimfieldsports.com/sightronscopes.htm)

- In the US, the price is about : USD$960 /GBP615
(http://www.act-optics.com/sightron-s...50x60lrtd.html)

Pricewise: Its a 50% increase ??? ! Theyve kept the same price sticker, but simply pasted on "GBP" :eek:

Therefore, the SIII SHOULD be the same price as the BIG NIKKO...and why not ?

- In the UK , the Big Nikko RETAILS from GBP650/612.
- In the US, Its USD$895 / GBP574
(https://www.airgunsofarizona.com/NikkoSterling.html)

Makes me :mad:

Will have to plan with the wife a 'holiday' to Florida one of these days :D

:cool:

Delphinus
14th August 2010, 02:35 PM
My 2 pennies on UK pricing.

Sightron SIII 'LRTD" or Mil Dot:

- In the UK, the 10-50 X 60 is GBP960 / USD$1500
(http://www.aimfieldsports.com/sightronscopes.htm)

- In the US, the price is about : USD$960 /GBP615
(http://www.act-optics.com/sightron-s...50x60lrtd.html)

Pricewise: Its a 50% increase ??? ! Theyve kept the same price sticker, but simply pasted on "GBP" :eek:

:cool:

You forgot several things but the more relevant are in UK the taxes are 10% higher that will give the equivalent increase in price, the distance from origin is higher so the shipping cost, smaller market, currency, etc.
Believe me compared to same countryís like Portugal me you guys in UK are very lucky. :(

JasonGoldsmith66
14th August 2010, 03:08 PM
You forgot several things but the more relevant are in UK the taxes are 10% higher that will give the equivalent increase in price, the distance from origin is higher so the shipping cost, smaller market, currency, etc.
Believe me compared to same country’s like Portugal me you guys in UK are very lucky. :(

Delphinus, I know what you are saying ...ie: when we do personal imports, Its add 10%-20% for duty (usually 10% from experience as the UK Tax man has a price % calculator formula), AND add 17.5% VAT for a total 27.5% minimum to final purchase; (BTW: VAT will be 20% VAT in 2011 in the UK).

When one becomes an agent or importer, the manufacturer SOMETIMES, wants to capture market share and obliterate the competitor , so LOWERS his wholesale prices to factor in Duty & Vat in that local country (and thins out his profit margin in the process), and works out an appropriate commission structure for the agent/importer. If you look at the Big Nikko in the US, and compare it versus the pricing for the Mil Dot Sightron there, the price is NEGLIGIBLE. ie: Both products being similar in price +/- $50/100, one wins out for being a superior product competing at almost identical prices. So Its obvious more consumers will start buying Sightron & start eating into Big Nikko's market share....

Well, for the Sightron market share to grow in the UK, and have the SIII Mil dot in direct competition at a 50% higher price...It wont happen as Its several price notches above for a considered purchase. Lets hope the Sightron Head Office hopefully lower their wholesale prices to pass on the savings to the UK consumers, via the UK importer/agent, but It wont happen and Im just dreaming; on the otherhand, Sightron MAY have done so, and since we dont know this for fact, It is possible the UK importer is just keen to MAX out his profit and let the price become a "GBP" sticker replacing the USD$ sign.

Fortunately for the net, we can compare price for price, and like for like value on a global basis.

Hence, those shopping holiday trips to US :D we all sometimes make :D !

...also consider, the Falcon T50 which will be 400 Pounds , ie: 1/3 cheaper (33%) than a 600 pound Nikko, which has the potential (if all goes well - glass, tube, range finding etc..), to relegate the Nikko and Sightron SIII to the back shelves in a gunstore...what, I ask, will the UK agent/importer do in that case with his inventory of unsold scopes ?

Just look at the debacle of S&B and the present second hand prices of these scopes.

:cool:

Globalstar66
19th August 2010, 07:25 PM
He told me that they were working closely with Barry McDonald in the UK (Kilty I think) and with Andras (from Hungary). I was quite excited when he told me this, but my excitement lasted only for a short period of time.

Hi Robbie, Barry McDonald.....aka kilty.
I, like you and lots of other FT shooters, have become frustrated with the S&B FT scope.
We kept Craig's one as it was far superior to mine. The problem was that this is the one that most shooters saw and tried before the production models were available, and then bought.
I still think that it is the best range-finding scope we have had but it does move in temperature / light conditions. Personally I think it is temperature shift. Mine would move by 7 yards whilst Craig's would only move about 1 to 2 yards.
The guys at S&B are fantastic. Problem I think is they are not allowed to spend anymore on a small market product.
With hindsight they are probably wishing they had left the FT scene alone.
My scope is sat on Christophe's desk since mid February this year. I thought that they would have had a part made by now to correct the problem.
The recent mail from another Doctor giving out the Company's position was attrocious. I would say typically German arrogance but these guys have become "friends" over the years.
What will the future hold? We are definitely NOT taking S&B to the Worlds in Hungary!
If they gave me a parallax fix we would ALL use S&B FT.
cheers
Barry (and Craig for his input)

Hello Barry

Thanks for your input here.

If only they treated it a little better, it would have been very acceptable.

I LOVE my S&B (when it works). The optics are awesome, the short eye relief means I can put my eyebrow right up on the electronic level I have attached to the scope. What I don't like, is this attitude of we have a solution - get a fishtank thermometer, and put 900 marks on your sidewheel - and a stupid question to me from Karen Hesse asking me "why do you not want to use our solution"? WTF????

Putting a fishtank thermo strip on and making my sidewheel a colouring book is THE solution?

I spent EUR7500 on my 3 S&B Ft scopes - and this is what I get asked.

Pity the Americans are NOT YET on the bandwagon.... If S&B feeds them this crap, S&B would not sell a single scope of any kind in the USA again...

Anyway, I will be taking my S&B's to World's in Hungary - to shove up someone's temperature sensitive bottom...:D:D And to show them how bad it really is.

Guess what - S&B are sponsoring an FT scope at Worlds...now that's going to be a laugh when the winner of the scope tells them he's not interested in the "fishtank thermo" solution... Hehehe.

sportsmatch
19th August 2010, 07:36 PM
Hi Robbie its not good news from **** bender 10p solution on a £1800 scope which has a serious problem :mad:
on another note how is the sightron doing

Gary

Globalstar66
20th August 2010, 07:15 PM
I agree Gary.

It's early days still with the Sightron, but so far so good. The rangefinding is very good, and I'm happy with that. Weight is GREAT. It weighs in at under 900 grams, compared to the S&B at over 1.2kg.

I re-parallaxed it to go down to around 8.2 meters, so now my 40-50 meter markings on a 5" sidewheel are quite close to each other - around 2mm between each 2 meter increment.

I will change it back to 10m focus again at some stage, so the gaps increase between 40 and 50m. Even with a 2mm gap between 40-42-44-46-48-50m, I can repeat the range every single time, so It's not a great worry.

Optics-wise, it's as good as a Leupold. All in all, in my humble opinion, MUCH nicer than Big Nikko.

Once I get to spend some PROPER time with it, I will do a nice write-up of the pros and cons... :)

dutoitk
16th September 2010, 06:03 AM
Hi Guys

Anybody given one of these scopes a proper test yet.

Side by side comparison with a New big Nikko mk3 would be nice.
Ranging consistency in low and bright light
Temp shift effects on ranging etc.

Thanks
Kevin

CharlieM
5th January 2011, 03:44 PM
Having sold my VX3 and with shooting opportunities thin on the ground with my baby daughter on the scene I wanted to replace it with a scope that was a bit less reliant on my eyes needing to use it regularly for range-finding. So I ummed and ahhhed and have just taken delivery of one of these. Picked it up in the sale Aim had on saving £130 and they have given top class service they even threw in a cap which was a nice touch.

Not had much time for a tinker but initial impressions are that it's a very nice quality scope. Build seems more solid than the Mk3 Nikko I had and the turrets are far more positive and feel very similar to a Weaver T36. Parallax wheel is firm but am sure it will ease with use and a big wheel will obviously make it a little lighter to turn. Have gone with the target dot ret which is very fine and seems identical to a Leup Comp, probably too fine for some but with a fairly narrow FOV I'd prefer a less busy ret. Mag is also firm and might well pop a coaster on as I like to mag down a little for the dreaded standers. Came with a set of branded flip up covers for front and rear and even a set of white cotton gloves! Also orders the sunshade which is a serious unit must be around 4mm thick and has some serious weight to it.

Haven't measured the shortest focal length yet but it's not goig to be far off 10yds. Anyway proof will be on the range and in anger but out of the box I'm very pleased for a slightly uncertain purchase. Keep you posted how it performs.

andyfin
30th May 2011, 08:10 PM
been testing this for about thee months now.someone said looks like a big nikko clone,well ithink thats where the simmilarities end.i range find and shoot on 30 mag and so far its done a good job but it is easier on 50 mag just my preference.it has the big milldot reticule which i did think i wouldnt be able to get use to as on 30 mag they are nearly twice the distance apart as a standard milldot but it is better for very windy shoots also you never loose the ret in gloomy conditions.it ranges down to 8 1/2 yards but because you sit behind the 8 yard line it ranges the 8 yarders no probs.it hasnt got the bigest of gaps from 45 to 55 yards even on a big wheel(which is a must)and there isnt that mutch left over 55 but it snaps in and out fast so its fine.i use a sunshade and scope enhancer and have had no poblems with glare.the wheele rotates nice and smooth not to lose or stiff somewhere in between.i didnt turn the turet more than a full turn and used the milldotts for any thing under 12 yards but with these 15mm kills i now dial for every thing 1 and3/4 turn on the turret for the 8 yarder.now for the nitty gritty,at the moment the scope stays the same on the marker between 10 degrees c and 24 degees cdont know above this but when it gets to about 10c it starts to alter.its about getting to know your scope and keeping it at a constant temp durring a shoot.it is a scope suited for ft and the dialling system is second to none wth the new possi tracking used.will no a bit more on the temp shift if we ever get some more hot weather and off course frosty conditions.

airborn68
20th September 2011, 06:03 PM
Hi

I am thinking of getting one as soon as I sell my Airwolf but wondered if anyone had tried one with the new LRIRMOA ret

http://aimfieldsports.com/epages/www_aimfieldsports_com.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/www_aimfieldsports_com/Products/SIIISS10-50x60LRIRMOA

Jon

Gibbs
21st September 2011, 08:33 AM
I was going to buy the illuminated ret, but the only part that illuminates is the dot in the middle, so I didn't bother.
Luckily, the milldot ret that I have, seems to "light up" slightly in darker/dull conditions. I think it's reflecting light from the back of the scope? But it works a treat and I haven't had to drop down from 50 mag on any targets, not even the gloomy one's at the Euro's.
I can't fault my Sightron on a single issue.

Atb,

Alec.

Jon
21st September 2011, 02:22 PM
Nemesis on here bought an IR Saturday:D
Might be next week before he finds out.

Now theres something really bugging me having had several peaks through the 50's over the last 12 months or so and 24 mag Saturday. After hearing rave reports on superb optics its not what i have found with several other people inc past world champ and a ZOS user!
Arguably the optics reasonable for the price point more important is whether you could live with.

Newer IR ret looks a lot less cluttered.

Find this hard to believe 1oz lighter than a March 80IR which uses light weight superior ED lenses. They have same weight for IR and non IR can someone check.

airborn68
13th October 2011, 11:36 AM
Hi

I've asked this already but has anyone looked through the LRIRMOA ret yet & what do you think, I know only the dot lights up, more interested in how heavy/fine the rest looks.

The guy at aimfield did say he would send me both mildot/moa & I could return the one I didn't want but I am a Yorkshireman so don't want to wast money on P&P.

Also some think the mildots ar to large,

what's your thoughts Jon

Fox
24th February 2012, 08:58 PM
I have a Sightron S111 10 - 50 LRMD set it up last August in 20 deg have been wondering how other Sightron owners have faired with the cold weather??

Mine under ranges at by 2yards at 10 deg at 55y 50y & 45y increasing to 5yards at 4 deg over the same distances not been out in anything colder.

Clive

PaulD
24th February 2012, 09:27 PM
Sam Barr from our club (Tawd Vale) had one of these, as is usual with Sam he sold it after a short while to Andy Finnegan from Byley FTC who seems to be using it to good effect. Ill try and get him or Sam to post their findings

Sammo
25th February 2012, 01:14 PM
I think it best that Andy gives feedback on this, I know he has just had it anodised silver and is intending using it again this summer.

Conor
25th February 2012, 01:57 PM
Did you ever find out the reason for the POI shifts when parallaxing down to close range?

holly
25th February 2012, 08:58 PM
Did you ever find out the reason for the POI shifts when parallaxing down to close range?

It was made in Ireland conor ??? HOLLY:):D

Andre98k
28th February 2012, 01:23 PM
Did you ever find out the reason for the POI shifts when parallaxing down to close range?

Hi Conor,in what model does this happen?

Mine,with this reticle:
http://www.sightron.com/reticles_images/MOA2.jpg
still hasn't made me this bad joke but your words scare me to death...
:(

mav78
4th March 2014, 05:17 PM
Hi all,
been trying to gather as much info as I can on the SB 12.5-50x56 and it seems that the general consensus is to stay away from them. Do SB offer any assistance still for earlier models back 09-10?

I bet there's a few die hard fans but from what i can see not many.

Regards

Mav

holly
20th March 2014, 08:04 PM
Mr Osbourne seems to do well with his FT . say's that his has not cost him a target . seem's the problem is with those that change all the time . the best just have a switch effect like the march ??? HOLLY:)